Yakov Fain wrote: @roche It looks like you didn't get my message and analogies. I know that Apple simply doesn't want Flash Player on iPhone regardless of how good/bad the product is.
I also know that Adobe has good engineers, but I don't see that they have much support from the management. By support I mean providing enough resources for delivering software of superb quality.
Your statement about "internal assessments of Adobe's management by its own engineers" is great, but show me the money. Why in the world does it take two years to release the next version of Flex?
Inadequate funding.
Why Adobe...
Now more than every there is pressure on IT to offer higher levels of service and a greater degree of availability all while cutting back on costs. As such, making sure your technology environment is efficient and effectively managed is absolutely essential. The data center, by its very nature, i...
(Editor's note: Hal Helms, editorial board member and regular columnist for ColdFusion Developer's Journal, is also a strong advocate for Java training. This commentary originally appeared in his Website and is reprinted with his permission.)
(May 13, 2003) - Sure, *you* want to learn Java: it makes your code faster, more robust, and more flexible. But what about your company? As a friend of mine says, "we're all listening to WII-FM". As in "What's In It For Me?" If you're asking your manager to approve training, s/he needs to know that there's a better reason than what's in it for you. Here are ten reasons I think Java expertise is important for companies.
First, Java is simply the unchallenged language of choice for building robust applications. As pressures increase for software to perform -- and to scale and evolve over time - the move to Java becomes more and more compelling. Java's excellent error handling, automatic garbage collection and code reuse can offer companies very significant savings. But Java by itself is not a magic bullet. Developers without proper training often see no benefit from Java.
Second, Java was built to be a secure language. The last thing that anyone wants to see is a mention of their company in an article detailing how a security lapse exposed key data meant to be private. Java helps ensure that data meant to be private stays private - and that when companies appear in the press, it's for a good reason.
Third, Java provides support for the latest technologies including Web services, XML, messaging, wireless, etc. In fact, one of the great things about Java is that it is so vast in its scope. If it can be done in software, it can be done in Java. And once you understand object orientation and know the Java syntax, learning how to use new features in Java only involves adding to your existing Java knowledge -- a far easier task than learning a new language and syntax.
Fourth is performance. Java is a high-performance language. Java with JSP (similar to ColdFusion for presentation) is over 10 times faster than using ColdFusion. A single JSP server can handle 10 times the number of simultaneous requests that ColdFusion can. Can you scale CF by adding hardware? Sure, but each server costs both hardware and software licensing money and all these must be administered.
Fifth, Java encourages documentation. The Javadoc utility is an absolute inspiration, allowing programmer-written comments to create high-quality documentation automatically. In fact, all of the official Java API documentation is generated from such comments. To a corporation, documentation represents a stable body of knowledge that new developers can read and come up to speed on quickly. But experience shows that if documentation is hard to produce, it won't be produced. Javadoc makes documentation remarkably easy.
Sixth, Java has an enormous number of supporting characters -- many of them free. This includes a very powerful framework called Struts, ColdFusion-like tags in JSPs, etc. One of the best editors for Java, Eclipse, is both extremely powerful and free. In proprietary languages, every addition costs. Additionally, there is a wealth of free information available to help beginning Java programmers.
Seventh, Java can communicate with an enormous number of products-from databases to highly specialized equipment. It's safe to say that anyone who produces an API to their product produces a Java version. This is true both currently and for the long term. Contrast this with proprietary languages.
Eight, Java can be deployed on virtually any platform without recompilation. The reason is that Java compiles to "byte code" and this byte code is then interpreted by Java virtual machines (JVMs). JVMs exist for virtually every platform. The benefit is that separate code bases do not have to be maintained -- an enormous savings to companies and a great relief for programmers charged with this thankless task.
Ninth, Java can be used for both Web-based applications and console applications. As great as the Web is, there are times where it's just not appropriate for certain applications. If you know only a Web language, you're stuck. Java has excellent support for building console-based applications.
Tenth, Java provides insurance against application obsolescence. Markets tend to cohere around a few, key technologies. Java is one of those. Over time, applications written using other technologies become harder and more expensive to maintain. With the universal acceptance of Java as the new King of the Hill, companies that adopt Java are assured of a large pool of skilled programmers. In other words, niche = expensive.
A lagniappe: Our friends in Louisiana have a word called "lagniappe" that means "a little something extra". An extra reason why Java makes sense for companies is that it prevents vendor lock-in. When you have a single source for a language, you are joined at the hip with the vendor making the language. Any financial problems of that vendor become your problem. If the vendor decides to raise rates to make up for lack of demand, you have no say in the matter. Java, besides being free, has a community process that involves every major vendor and a very large number of users of the language. In other words, mainstream = safe.
But can't developers pick up Java on their own? Yes - and no. The syntax of Java isn't particularly difficult. In fact, we spend only 20% of the class going over syntax. The rest of the class deals with the hard part of Java - learning to "think in objects" as programming guru, Bruce Eckel, puts it. The shift from procedural thinking to object thinking is not particularly natural or easy for most of us. Having an experienced guide and mentor to help you with that is enormously valuable.
For example, pick up a Java book and read about a feature of Java called "interfaces" and you're likely to get the impression that interfaces are used to provide the benefits of multiple inheritance. While that is not untrue, it misses showing students how interfaces are absolutely fundamental to creating OO designs and are key to one of OO's most powerful features, polymorphism. And without understanding this, developers are too apt to write old-style, procedural code and stuff this code into Java classes. This represents the worst of all worlds: a new technology stripped of its chief benefits.
Finally, some may ask about Microsoft's .NET initiative. Doesn't that compete with Java? Should developers learn Java or concentrate on .NET? It usually surprises people when I tell them that I like .NET very much. It provides great tools for developers and is a very good implementation of object orientation. Microsoft has recast even venerable Visual Basic so that now it is fully object oriented. Microsoft's chosen language, though, is C#, a language very similar to Java.
I encourage people who think they may be working in .NET to learn Java first. Why? Because while .NET offers some great shortcuts that work just by pushing a button, you really need to understand what "pushing the button" does. There's just no substitute for learning object orientation and Java is non vendor-specific. In other words, moving from Java to C# is usually much easier than moving from C# to Java. The reason is that C# training focuses on the Microsoft way of doing things. As I said, I'm a big fan of .NET and C#, but first, let's get a solid foundation in OO.
About Hal Helms Hal Helms is a well-known speaker/writer/strategist on software development issues. He holds training sessions on Java, ColdFusion, and software development processes. He authors a popular monthly newsletter series. For more information, contact him at hal (at) halhelms.com or see his website, www.halhelms.com.
Reader Feedback: Page 1 of 2
#22
Ronald Newton commented on 24 May 2003
You can always find poor developers using any technology. That they are certified simply indicates their ability to learn to pass a test--but it does indicate that at that point in time, they knew something about the technology, someting you cannot guarantee in someone who is not certified.
Pretenders abound in our field -- they code in all languages and are at all levels in all positions.
So--- DON'T BASH JAVA BECAUSE YOU RAN ACROSS A CERTIFIED PERSON WHO COULD NOT CODE WELL.
Ronald Newton
IBM Certified for e-business Solution Designer (ICeSD),
Sun Certified Enterprise Architect for Java Platform Enterprise Edition Technology (SCEA),
SCJD, SCJP
Author Java Certification Practice Test at www.boson.com
#21
Phang commented on 20 May 2003
>>I have seen Sun Certified Engineers that couldn't code at all. I have seen programmers coming from other languages that picked up a book and ran with it. It is good programmers that create the benefit, not training courses
>>>
Strongly agree, I have met some of them. SCJP can't code well and C++ programmer catch-up very well. :)
#20
Raymond Lee commented on 16 May 2003
It seems that no one thinks about the decompilation of Java class byte code from those decompilers? Is it also a good reason to stay with Java? I always expects Sun will put more effort on protecting the compiled source code...but also make me disappointed.
One must pay attention to Java because it's ubiquitous. By now, it's like a force of nature, warts and all. Java was in the right place, at the right time, with the right (no charge, all expenses paid by Sun) sponsorship.
That says you'd better learn to live with it and use it. The fact that you've also got to learn a pile of constantly changing APIs and other programming languages and environments to get anything real done opens a fantastic $$$ opportunity for training companies and tools companies and consulting companies and ..... BECAUSE JAVA AND RELATED TECHNOLOGIES ARE DIFFICULT TO USE.
In particular, Java was not designed for web services. It is a tribute to many tough, persistent people that any web services work gets done in Java.
Wrong. ColdFusion MX file is compiled during first request and all requests will actually hit the servlet (same with JSP). And that servlet is running on Java Application Server, which is JRun (CFMXs underlying platform). ColdFusion only "translates" CFML (cold fusion markup language)to Java. You can write JSP and run it on ColdFusionMX server and result will be th same.
ColdFusionMX tags - are actually JSP "taglibs".
ColdFusion MX - IS JAVA.
#17
Richard Stack commented on 14 May 2003
The article certainly gave ten good reason for Java, but there's one more.
This eleventh reason is the on that keeps the guys at Microsoft awake at night. It's **Open Source**. A lot of the major Java innovations are being done as open source development. JBoss, Struts, Ant, Xdoclet, Hibernate, Jdom plus many, many more projects are now what's driving Java development.
#16
fletch commented on 14 May 2003
I would go with 1 reason
1. It has been around and it has proven itself
Write once , run multiple places has been illusion since the beginning of time.
Java needs to have an easier coding interface with beginner(VB) like guys and the hardcore(Java is easy) guys. It doesn't so .Net steps in. Where is the 4GL for Java..3GL maybe? 2 GL? I am curious whether ColdFusion MX (easy to write) and generates high performance Java may be the ticket...
*************
With all due respect to Java, so far as I have seen it only has 2 reasons why it is better than .NET:
1. It has been around and it has proven itself...
2. It can be ran on multiple platform, once compiled.
Unfortunately, this article praises Java with some questionable reasons. Most of the arguments are pertinent, but 3 of them are really off the mark.
4 performance: Java sure has become a serious contender when it comes to computation (actually see my book about OO implementation of numerical methods). But, using JSP as an example is quite lousy. JSP do ***NOT*** deliver high performance systems. See for example, the recent book by Greg Barish about High performance Java applications. There are better ways of doing things than JSP as exposed in Jason Hunter
#13
E.S. Sei commented on 13 May 2003
I have the same experience as Brian few years ago. But I still learn Java just in case it really picks up (with a lot of marketing, it did). I am also learning about .NET (same reason). Currently I am using a 4GL that comes with application framework - the most efficient tool for me for now. You will never know what comes next...
#12
jay sdk commented on 13 May 2003
"Developers without proper training often see no benefit from Java."
- that's cute. You think a 5 day or even 2-week company sponsored course with a corporate training company will fix that?
I have seen Sun Certified Engineers that couldn't code at all. I have seen programmers coming from other languages that picked up a book and ran with it. It is good programmers that create the benefit, not training courses.
#11
Yagiz Erkan commented on 13 May 2003
> Try loading up your WSAD application
> in JDeveloper and see if it's "vendor
> independent."
What kind of statement is that? Obviously the source code is vendor independent, not the project file. Copy your code package hierarchy in Eclipse, see if that works.
If you use a tool that doesn't keep the source code as a Java file, I don't know who's fault is that? The company who opted for using using that tool or the tool itself?
#10
Brad commented on 13 May 2003
I am a long time entrepreneur, and I use Java and Microsoft (primarily Visual Basic) every week.
A lot of good points in this thread. IMHO, I think it all comes down to your objectives.
If you run a large development group and are more interested in corraling all developers into one well defined sandbox in which they develop all applications, then .Net is clearly the platform of choice. If on the other hand, you are doing innovative work in which you need to think (and code) outside of the box in order to be successful, then Java is a far more empowering environment.
Microsoft, for sound business reasons, is after the huge mainstream IT market of large corporations, standard SQL based applications, etc. So they produce an architecture and a development environment that highly optimizes any development in this well defined technology sandbox.
If on the other hand, you need to do something leading edge or revolutionary, then you are very restricted on Microsoft technology. Case in point; write a almost any control in Visual C++ and you'll see what I mean. In this environment, Visual C++ is virtually a "write only" language.
From a business perspective, if it is a desktop application, the odds are about 99 to 1 in Microsoft's favor, so I'd choose that option. If your application is web based and its value is mainly in the business process that is encapsulated in standard screens and standard (albeit complex) SQL database relationships, then .Net is great. But if your application is outside of that model, then I would go for the clean, extremely well engineered (from a computer science point of view) Java as the best "enabling" tool.
And finally, if you are a starving startup: Microsoft MDSN subscription=$$, Windows Server 2003 to deploy on=$$, SQL Server licenses=$$, web hosting costs using SQL Server=+$$, etc. Java when combined with the totally industrial open source software available: virtually all of that is free. Need an additional box? Buy a server for a thousand or so and you are off and running; no more licensing costs.
In closing: if you will have 1000 mediocre programmers on the project: .Net. If you will have 5-10 above average programmers on the project: Java.
Different strokes for different folks.
#9
Will Handley commented on 13 May 2003
I pretty much agree with the article, but I think it's amusing to click on one of the links and see that "Java Developer's Journal" is running on Cold Fusion. Guess you don't want to be 10 times faster?
#8
Brian Kiser commented on 13 May 2003
"I say minimal because, well, when is the last time you ever saw two competing vendors have the EXACT same configuration layout for their competing apps? You haven't! Therefore, ever vendor has their own way of having things deployed."
Exactly! It's not really "vendor independent." But I guess it sounds good. I don't have a problem with this, but I get tired of hearing people spout off about how vendor independent Java is.
No, I'm not using a PII. However, it's obvious the performance is not the wonderful utopia that the writer believes. It's slow, even on my 1.4ghz with 1gb of ram. It's usable, but saying Swing is "high-performance" is a bit of a stretch, don't you think? In any event, I'm going to assume he wasn't talking about Java as a whole, but rather J2EE, which is pretty quick overall.
Ronald Newton wrote: You can always find poor developers using any technology. That they are certified simply indicates their ability to learn to pass a test--but it does indicate that at that point in time, they knew something about the technology, someting you cannot guarantee in someone who is not certified.
Pretenders abound in our field -- they code in all languages and are at all levels in all positions.
So--- DON'T BASH JAVA BECAUSE YOU RAN ACROSS A CERTIFIED PERSON WHO COULD NOT CODE WELL.
Ronald Newton
IBM Certified for e-business Solution Designer (ICeSD),
Sun Certified Enterprise Architect for Java Platform Enterprise Edition Technology (SCEA),
SCJD, SCJP
Author Java Certification Practice Test at www.boson.com
Phang wrote: >>I have seen Sun Certified Engineers that couldn't code at all. I have seen programmers coming from other languages that picked up a book and ran with it. It is good programmers that create the benefit, not training courses
>>>
Strongly agree, I have met some of them. SCJP can't code well and C++ programmer catch-up very well. :)
Raymond Lee wrote: It seems that no one thinks about the decompilation of Java class byte code from those decompilers? Is it also a good reason to stay with Java? I always expects Sun will put more effort on protecting the compiled source code...but also make me disappointed.
Thanks,
Raymond
halfnium@alum.mit.edu wrote: One must pay attention to Java because it's ubiquitous. By now, it's like a force of nature, warts and all. Java was in the right place, at the right time, with the right (no charge, all expenses paid by Sun) sponsorship.
That says you'd better learn to live with it and use it. The fact that you've also got to learn a pile of constantly changing APIs and other programming languages and environments to get anything real done opens a fantastic $$$ opportunity for training companies and tools companies and consulting companies and ..... BECAUSE JAVA AND RELATED TECHNOLOGIES ARE DIFFICULT TO USE.
In particular, Java was not designed for web services. It is a tribute to many tough, persistent people that any web services work gets done in Java.
You can see my favorite way to go at www.waterlanguage.org.
Vlad Piankov wrote: Wrong. ColdFusion MX file is compiled during first request and all requests will actually hit the servlet (same with JSP). And that servlet is running on Java Application Server, which is JRun (CFMXs underlying platform). ColdFusion only "translates" CFML (cold fusion markup language)to Java. You can write JSP and run it on ColdFusionMX server and result will be th same.
ColdFusionMX tags - are actually JSP "taglibs".
ColdFusion MX - IS JAVA.
Richard Stack wrote: The article certainly gave ten good reason for Java, but there's one more.
This eleventh reason is the on that keeps the guys at Microsoft awake at night. It's **Open Source**. A lot of the major Java innovations are being done as open source development. JBoss, Struts, Ant, Xdoclet, Hibernate, Jdom plus many, many more projects are now what's driving Java development.
fletch wrote: I would go with 1 reason
1. It has been around and it has proven itself
Write once , run multiple places has been illusion since the beginning of time.
Java needs to have an easier coding interface with beginner(VB) like guys and the hardcore(Java is easy) guys. It doesn't so .Net steps in. Where is the 4GL for Java..3GL maybe? 2 GL? I am curious whether ColdFusion MX (easy to write) and generates high performance Java may be the ticket...
*************
With all due respect to Java, so far as I have seen it only has 2 reasons why it is better than .NET:
1. It has been around and it has proven itself...
2. It can be ran on multiple platform, once compiled.
Didier Besset wrote: Unfortunately, this article praises Java with some questionable reasons. Most of the arguments are pertinent, but 3 of them are really off the mark.
4 performance: Java sure has become a serious contender when it comes to computation (actually see my book about OO implementation of numerical methods). But, using JSP as an example is quite lousy. JSP do ***NOT*** deliver high performance systems. See for example, the recent book by Greg Barish about High performance Java applications. There are better ways of doing things than JSP as exposed in Jason Hunter
E.S. Sei wrote: I have the same experience as Brian few years ago. But I still learn Java just in case it really picks up (with a lot of marketing, it did). I am also learning about .NET (same reason). Currently I am using a 4GL that comes with application framework - the most efficient tool for me for now. You will never know what comes next...
jay sdk wrote: "Developers without proper training often see no benefit from Java."
- that's cute. You think a 5 day or even 2-week company sponsored course with a corporate training company will fix that?
I have seen Sun Certified Engineers that couldn't code at all. I have seen programmers coming from other languages that picked up a book and ran with it. It is good programmers that create the benefit, not training courses.
Yagiz Erkan wrote: > Try loading up your WSAD application
> in JDeveloper and see if it's "vendor
> independent."
What kind of statement is that? Obviously the source code is vendor independent, not the project file. Copy your code package hierarchy in Eclipse, see if that works.
If you use a tool that doesn't keep the source code as a Java file, I don't know who's fault is that? The company who opted for using using that tool or the tool itself?
Brad wrote: I am a long time entrepreneur, and I use Java and Microsoft (primarily Visual Basic) every week.
A lot of good points in this thread. IMHO, I think it all comes down to your objectives.
If you run a large development group and are more interested in corraling all developers into one well defined sandbox in which they develop all applications, then .Net is clearly the platform of choice. If on the other hand, you are doing innovative work in which you need to think (and code) outside of the box in order to be successful, then Java is a far more empowering environment.
Microsoft, for sound business reasons, is after the huge mainstream IT market of large corporations, standard SQL based applications, etc. So they produce an architecture and a development environment that highly optimizes any development in this well defined technology sandbox.
If on the other hand, you need t...
Will Handley wrote: I pretty much agree with the article, but I think it's amusing to click on one of the links and see that "Java Developer's Journal" is running on Cold Fusion. Guess you don't want to be 10 times faster?
Brian Kiser wrote: "I say minimal because, well, when is the last time you ever saw two competing vendors have the EXACT same configuration layout for their competing apps? You haven't! Therefore, ever vendor has their own way of having things deployed."
Exactly! It's not really "vendor independent." But I guess it sounds good. I don't have a problem with this, but I get tired of hearing people spout off about how vendor independent Java is.
No, I'm not using a PII. However, it's obvious the performance is not the wonderful utopia that the writer believes. It's slow, even on my 1.4ghz with 1gb of ram. It's usable, but saying Swing is "high-performance" is a bit of a stretch, don't you think? In any event, I'm going to assume he wasn't talking about Java as a whole, but rather J2EE, which is pretty quick overall.
kevin wrote: As to the article, I agree for the most part, and I too like what .NET has to offer. I am a little unclear how you figure Java/JSP is 10x faster than cold fusion? I don't even know cold fusion, some of our other co workers do. But I am curious what tests were ran to show that it is 10x faster?
As for some replies. Brian Kiser writes:
"Java is high performance? You are obviously not talking about desktop apps using Swing."
Brian, what are you running on, a PII? Sure, a native app will usually run faster, but shouldn't it? Even so, to this day on my PIII800 with 512MB RAM I am seeing NO problem with several java apps. As an example, I give you Eclipse IDE. Yes, the widget set was done through JNI to the native OS, but it is still using JNI, which in itself is somewhat slow. Eclipse is very solid and fast. What exactly do you need Swing to be so fast for anyway? There are really only...
Teekay wrote: yep, this technological war(who is the best) will lead nowhere. The fact of the matter is everything is application specific. I guess there is nothing like one particular technology is THE best. If java is good because of its robustness, platform independence etc etc, .Net is good simply because u can get things done with the push of a button. After all, isnt abstraction one of the key elements of object oriented programming ? So why really break ur head over what a "push of a button" is really doing internally.There are so many things to learn and implement that knowing inside out of every technology is neither possible and nor is it required in every case. Developers who have worked for long periods of time on a particular technology invariably tend to believe that their technology is the best. so c, c++, Java, Visual basic, VC++, Delphi, cobol, pascal and even assembly language, s...
llc wrote: Just what I love. Technology for technologies sake. Perfect. Let's all rewrite our code. Throw away all your apps guys. We're rewriting in java. So what if it costs us more than it's worth. So what if it puts us years behind because we're rewriting. So what if we drag our company down the tubes cause of our technological religious wars.
I can't stand this conversation any longer. I quit.
Brian Kiser wrote: Java is high performance? You are obviously not talking about desktop apps using Swing.
Vendor independent? That's the biggest pipe dream I've ever heard of. Try loading up your WSAD application in JDeveloper and see if it's "vendor independent."
"Java is simply the unchallenged language of choice for building robust applications." Unchallenged? Really? Somebody better tell Microsoft, 'cause they've challenged Java quite well.
Overall, a decent article but it detaches from reality occasionally and goes into "I worship Java" land.
Mike Moore wrote: The difference between MS products and Java products is simply what you have said. MS has "tightened security" in .NET. (i.e. Put in some controls afterwards). Java was written with Security as the first and foremost thought. Let's face it all of MS's products are tied closely to their OS, and there OS's are a petri dish for security.
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(Editor's note: Hal Helms, editorial board member and regular columnist for ColdFusion Developer's Journal, is also a strong advocate for Java training. This commentary originally appeared in his 
Faced with high in-house deployment, management, and support costs for its mission-critical enterprise applications, enterprises are turning to the cloud for its economic efficiencies and speed of deployment. But moving to the cloud requires some up-front planning and careful considera...
Cloud Computing Journal caught up with the CEO of a major new player in the fast-emerging Cloud ecosystem - a CEO who has taken an interesting and unusual decision. While signing up as the Platinum Plus Sponsor of the 5th International Cloud Expo, he and his company have decided to rem...
Novell broke its 18-day silence late Saturday morning and rejected the unsolicited $5.75-a-share offer to take the company private that Elliott Associates plunked on the table March 2.
Novell wants more money.
Bearing in mind that Novell currently has close to a billion dollars i...
NaviCloud is a next-generation platform that combines the economic efficiencies of cloud computing with true enterprise-class reliability and security. With built-in high-availability, a state of the art operations center, and a highly resilient service delivery infrastructure spanning...
Dell is suing Sharp, Hitachi, Toshiba, Seiko Epson and HannStar in district court in San Francisco for fixing the price of LCDs and overcharging since 1996. It wants treble damages. Bloomberg repeats the suit’s observation that Sharp and Hitachi admitted overcharging Dell in a plea agr...
SYS-CON Events announced today that VirtuDataCenter, a cloud computing network infrastructure company, will offer a complete turnkey alternative to today’s cloud computing solutions. They will exhibit at SYS-CON's 5th International Cloud Expo (www.CloudComputingExpo.com), which will ta...
