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In many cases, the end of the year gives you time to step back and take stock of the last 12 months. This is when many of us take a hard look at what worked and what did not, complete performance reviews, and formulate plans for the coming year. For me, it is all of those things plus a time when I u...
SYS-CON.TV
JDJ Archives: Eclipse vs NetBeans - "Point/Counterpoint" Special
Point/Counterpoint over Java's Desktop UI technology

This article was originally published in print on December 3, 2003

"Eclipse represents the worst of Java"

Lately, there's been a lot of guff spouted about how Sun isn't joining Eclipse. While I understand the bitterness aimed at Sun somewhat, I think that this particular brand of talk is counterproductive and, dare I say it, wrong. The talk tends to center around the concept of NetBeans and Eclipse using common technology, and I think this is misguided, and here's why.

I really dislike Netbeans. I think it blows goats from here to Sussex, and considering that I live in the middle of the US, that's a lot of goats. Given the choice between NetBeans and... Notepad, I usually spend a minute pondering whether I can keep remembering to check extensions on filenames before realizing that I can, and I end up with sucky ol' Notepad instead of bothering with NetBeans.

That said... I use Eclipse fairly often. I have a client who's standardized on WSAD, and I really think Eclipse' project management is a model to be copied. The CVS integration, last time I used it, wasn't bad at all (if a touch kludgey), and...

And I'd rather use NetBeans than Eclipse, given a single project to work with. In fact, the only OS I'll use Eclipse on is Windows. Everywhere else... not a chance. Eclipse represents the worst of Java: an IDE, a popular one, that isn't actually as much Java as I'd like.

Look: NetBeans sucks. I said that already, right? But I can run it on all of my OSes and have a reasonable expectation of what it looks like and how it works. It's NETBEANS. Not NetBeans/XP, not NetBeans/Linux, not NetBeans/Solaris. It's just NetBeans. IDEA (my editor of choice) is the same way: I install it, and the user experience is the same regardless of OS. That's where Swing rocks. It (IDEA and/or NetBeans) is one program, that I don't have to re-learn to use everywhere I use it.

Eclipse... oh man, the first time I opened it up on another OS... ... I don't think I can describe my gut reaction in a public forum. It's amazingly ugly. It's awesome on some OSes... and when I pointed out how ugly it was on MY platform, here's a smattering of the responses I got:

  • "Why are you running THAT OS?"
  • "Why don't you port SWT (to a different toolkit)?"
  • "It's free!"

Um... right. I should choose my OS based on a specific program I want to run, regardless of whether that program fits the machine's overall goal.

It's free, so I should just suffer in silence.

Worse: I should port SWT to my chosen operating system and UI toolkit. While I realise that's the best gift economy move I could make, I'm a busy man. I have too much on my plate as it is, and too many good alternatives to take up porting SWT.

This is what annoys me about Eclipse: the free moniker is misleading, the toolkit is ideal for a limited set of platforms, and the Eclipse people - sorry, guys - carry around this annoying flag of "We're the underdog, HEAR US ROAR."

Bleagh.

About Henry Roswell
Henry Roswell is a veteran consultant who would like to think he's seen it all, but is constantly amazed by new events every day.

About Joseph Ottinger
I am a software evangelist for GigaSpaces technologies, as well as a writer and musician. I've been the editor-in-chief of Java Developer's Journal and TheServerSide.

GigaSpaces Technologies is a leading provider of a new generation of application platforms for Java and .Net environments that offer an alternative to traditional application-servers. The company's eXtreme Application Platform (XAP) is a high-end application server, designed to meet the most demanding business requirements in a cost-effective manner. It is the only product that provides a complete middleware solution on a single, scalable platform. XAP is trusted by Fortune 100 companies, which leverage it as a strategic solution that enhances efficiency and agility across the IT organization.

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According to my experiences, Eclipse provides good look and feel in Linux environments compared to the other IDEs even though Eclipse looks quite pretty under Windows. And even the performance is good under Linux.

With the huge set of plug-ins available, Eclipse is becoming the most useful IDE that I have used.

JDJ Archives: Eclipse vs NetBeans - "Point/Counterpoint" Special. While NetBeans ain't perfect, far from it, SWT and Eclipse aren't right for Java, says Joseph Ottinger; a position with which Henry Roswell disagrees. Read the first of a new series of 'Point/Counterpoint' discussions...and join the 80+ readers who have already weighed in on one side or other of the debate.

I would say, eclipse sucks on linux as much as linux sucks in itself. I have seen eclipse in action on Linux, and the look and feel and performance is not much worse than look and feel and performance of linux or any other IDE in linux itself. Besides, the bitter truth is that most of the biggies use primarily, the windows platform for application development, where eclipse is the nxtbest thing to JAVA itself. As far as open source goes, netbeans is a good IDE, however they have to make better effort to involve the community in development, like explaining the architecture through articles etc.

Eclipse sucks on linux (that's what matters). NetBeans 4.0 continues to be the beauty that it is on Windoze and Linux. SWT throws platform independent rendering out of the window. I'm afraid, that's antithetical to java itself. Or, has IBM come up with SWT to bring in incompatibility, thereby kill Java & hence Sun's lead in this area of technology? You never know. Anyways, eclipse & swt are for windoze zombies. Netbeans is slick and superfast compared to the slow,bulky, memory-hogger that eclipse is. Just use ND 4.0 once and you'll never look elsewhere.

Build it on the mac ... and it won't run

Our company has been developing applications for Mac for many years.

We recently found a troubling problem.

We have Java application that has a native component tied to OS X.
http://serialio.com/products/SerialMagic/index.htm

In the past we built this app (except for the native component) on
a Windows PC and packaged it on OS X using JAR Bundler.

It was a bit of extra trouble, but everthing worked reliably.
In an effort to streamline development we installed
netBeans IDE 4.0 for OS X.

After considerable effort we found that the JAR file produced
by netBeans IDE 4.0 for OS X, will not run on OS X.

We can move the identical Java sources to a PC and compile
the JAR there, move that JAR back to the Mac, and use
the JAR Bundler to create the application, and it works.

So in short
Build it on the mac ... and it won't run

I'm not an experienced developer, but I used Eclipse for some plug-in development. I used it on both Windows and (mostly) Linux. Personally I think that gtk version of Eclipse looks cool (maybe the author used motif version, which is really ugly :)) The ui is responsive, and the same I cannot say about NetBeans, but I used it a year ago, version 3.x, so maybe now it's much better. I only remember, that even scrolling text in editor was a nightmare (512 megs of RAM). I like in Eclipse also VisualEditor - I remember, that in NetBeans, if you accidentally deleted some config file, you couldn't edit visually any more. Visual Editor is different - you can work with code, you can work visually, it is synchronized. Cool! I like also GEF and EMF, and many different cool things (I don't want to begin some IDE war again, please :))

I read this article a few months ago, before NetBeans 3.6 was released and agreed with almost all the appreciations in it, specially that Eclipse was slightly better than NetBeans in overall (even that it sucks when running in Linux, my preferred OS). But TODAY (Aug 24/04) after NetBeans 3.6 and 4.0b have been released the story is completely different. NetBeans's group have made an excellent work in these last releases, 3.6 have a lot of improvements and 4.0 is just going to be great (not yet finished). Don't really know what is going to happen with Eclipse project in the near future, maybe they are going to work for a better support on Linux and other OS's, but NetBeans is now a good competitor for them and hope that some day they (NB) will reach "the top" of this fight.

Having used both Eclipse and Netbeans, my preference leans solidly towards Netbeans. SWT use and code refactoring are about all that Eclipse has to offer me that Netbeans doesn''t and in my experience and SWT is near useless for doing the kind of graphics manipulation that is possible with Swing like setting arbitrary clipping regions or using different affine transformations or customized pixel blending methods. Refactoring I will admit is sort of nice to have, but the Netbeans dev team is already on top of that, with refactoring listed at the very top of the new features list in Netbeans 4.0 (currently in alpha testing and slated for release before the fall of this year). I could theoretically use Eclipse right now and have refactoring today, but there are several other little features in Netbeans I like which _combined_ just aren''t worth giving up just for that one thing, IMO.

I use Eclipse (gtk) on linux and don''t see big differences to eclipse on win2k.
What's looking so different, or are the diffences to the motif-Version or XP/ME/98/NT/95/3.11/3.1/2.0 :)

Eclipse if great. There are lots of plugins that do a variety of things. Great CVS, Ant, Junit integration, good refactoring. I can also use it for other languages. Even the PHPEclipse plugin works well when I have a client for PHP. Eclipse was the firm IDE that made me finally leave vi behind for most of my devlopment.

Sure drag and drop doesn't work on linux eclipse, but it's very usable on windows and linux.

BTW for the Vikram, if the problem you descibe in WSAD is the one I've encountered, occasionaly the .project file can get corrupted. Remove .project, close and reopen the project and then rebuild all.

Recently I came across few unexpected problems with WSAD 5.0.1.

Converting EJB local to EJB remote messes up with Application.xml. No way to cure, tried many. Atlast ended up deleting and creating new project. Found little strange behaviour for settings related to compile when save the file, between two different machine. Too slow.
Cannot dare to use for large project. I think IDEA I liked.
One thing good about WSAD/Eclips, is its model.

WSAD donot provide correct jndi name for local ejb, which is local:ejb/.... in case of WAS 5.0 , its annoying.
And it seems to me IBM one or other way wants to harrash java community by one or other way, why they cannot stick to
java:comp/env or ejb/ for jndi naming for ejb, what they want to prove? We know they are stupid, do not have guts to innovate something like java, Its becos of my client I''m using WSAD.......

Okay I use Eclipse so I''m biased.
And I don''t want to seem provocative, but Joseph Ottinger''s article and criticism are just totally wrong. The logic is flawed, the conclusion wrong.

I say this because his main criticism is that Eclipse looks different on different platforms, whereas NetBeans looks the same.

Yes it does, and well it should.

Applications should look different on different platforms. Different platforms look different. The applications that run on them should strive be consistent with one another at the expense of being self-consistent across platforms.
If the other platform is an ugly platform with ugly-looking applications, then Eclipse should be ugly.

Ottinger claims that this represents the "worst of Java". But the promise of Java is "write once run anywhere", not "write once look the same everywhere". (Granted when it comes to GUI applications neither of these promises is kept, but you get the point)

The one argument you could make in favor of Swing based applications here, is that if they offer a Look and Feel choice to the user, then the user gets to choose whether they are part of the 99.999% that want the platform default LnF or the Ottinger minority that wants the cross-platform LnF. The pluggable LnFs, however, are not nearly as truly "native" as the native components wrapped by SWT. And the many Swing applications that automatically select the platform LnF end up in the same situation as Eclipse on the "ugly plafform" - they are only as good as that version of the LnF (compared to only as good as that port of SWT).

So if you''re one of the 0.0001% that needs to use Eclipse on many platforms regularly then heed well his sage advice. But if you''re one of the overwhelming majority who just wants a decent IDE on your platform of choice, ignore him completely.

Swing vs SWT has nothing to do with Eclipse vs Netbeans vs YourFavoriteIDEHere.

The most important reason to use an IDE is productivity.
And there every other IDE should keep an eye on eclipse.
At the moment Eclipse itself lacks strong support for J2EE development (you can buy some good plugins like www.myeclipseide.com ).

Very strange for me are the VS.net supporter in the comments. While VS is good in supporting a wide range of developer activities (html, xml, sql aso.), it lacks even the basic features while coding.
Ever tried to rename a class with VS.net-C++? A thing of seconds in Eclipse.
Ever tried to create getter&setter? This does not even exist is VS.
Userdefined macros (called templates in Eclipse)? Do not exist.
Not to name all the more sophisticated things.
Like searching for all read &| write accesses to a member.
A local history keeping an eye of all your changes.
Refactorings like automatically generating a method from selected source code.

As pointed earlier we have a discussion on two levels: 1. Eclipse vs Netbeans and consequently 2. SWT vs Swing.

1. I used both IDEs. I wasn''t satisfied with Netbeans because it''s big and slow. However, since version 3.5 it became faster (and more to come). Eclipse is OK, but it runs slow on Linux. Actually on Linux I cannot really tell the difference between them (I use Mandrake 9.2 with the 2D hardware accelerated Sis driver). The JDK is the latest (1.4.2_02).

However, memory consumption at startup is lower for Eclipse (57 megs) compared to Netbeans (97 megs).

Now, I have to tell you that I dislike both Netbeans and Eclipse. I used a lot jEdit (www.jedit.org) and is the ideal open source Java editor/IDE. It isn''t backed by "hairy chested" companies but only developers. Actually it resembles to IDEA. Or IDEA resembles to jEdit :-D Hint: IDEA is on the market since 3 years and jEdit is around since 5 years.

And you get a lot of plugins with jEdit. It performs better than Netbeans and it has a very powerful code editor (isn''t this one of the most important things?). Needless to say that the GUI is Swing based.

2. Regarding SWT vs. Swing
We get three main threads:
- performance
For now SWT is faster on Windows than Swing. But not considerably faster (warning: do not compare Eclipse with Netbeans. Compare it with IDEA or jEdit). On Linux, it''s hard to see a winner. I haven''t seen it on MacOsX but I''d say it''s about the same situation the least (Swing has powerful hardware acceleration on that platform).

- API
Swing''s API is truly object-oriented (or at least this is the tendency) and it the MVC pattern heavily used. Programming SWT reminds me of MFC and Win32 API which both suck (my recent programming experiences tell me that).

- look&feel (LAF)
Myth: Eclipse integrates better into the OS''s LAF. Right? WRONG!

On Linux it certainly doesn''t look like a native application - the better look is GTK2 like. On Windows XP, hmm... I just put up Eclipse 2.1.2 on a WinXP machine. The scrollbars are XP like. So are the menus, and fonts. And the rest are custom controls anyway. Oh, wait. The bloody push buttons!!! They have a Win 9x/2k look regardless of the used OS theme (mine is XP Silver). So do combo boxes. But lists are OK. That''s hell of a LAF integration.

Now, I start a Swing application (jEdit) and I set the Windows LAF. True, it requires a restart (I never understood why - it''s something from jEdit''s kitchen). And, what a suprise? We have a Java Swing application that look just like a native one: scrollbars, menus, fonts, _buttons_, _combos_, lists etc. Oh, and if you change the theme while running Swing applications with Windows LAF, the LAF changes dynamically.

Now about that LAF integration. Let''s not strech this, shall we? Try it yourselves (Win XP sp1, J2sdk 1.4.2_03).

My conclusions:
Eclipse is OK (let''s see how 3.0 raises the stake). Netbeans is OK (probably 3.6 will rock). jEdit is my choice :-) Try it and see why.

SWT is inferior to Swing in almost every aspects. Personally, I prefer less performant but easily maintainable applications (that is Swing) over better performant and hardly maintainable ones (yes, SWT).

One more thing regarding the performance of SWT and Swing. Swing''s performance will let''s say change in new j2sdk versions. Especially under Linux. Don''t ask me, I know nothing.

Do you think SWT can get any more performant? Think about one or two years from now. Will you prefer an API that is poorly architected, less performant and has signs of LAF illness? And that isn''t 100% java?

Think again.

Folks, let''s just admit a few things about Swing. It is STILL SLOW after all of these years. There is virtually no getting around it. I recently loaded JBuilder v9 on my 3GHz, 1GB RAM Pentium 4 machine and I still notice delays when I click on menus. Did I mention it was version 9? And that it was written by the folks at Borland, who certainly know more about Swing than I do. The same delays hold for nearly every other significant Swing app I have used. You rarerly or never seen such delays in non-Swing apps.

Swing''s LAF''s are cartoonish and their fonts are laughable. And having GUI controls based on native widgets is a significant advantage. When I deploy an SWT app in a corporate environment that is a mix of Win2000 and WinXP, the file dialogs, for example, all look exactly the way the USERS EXPECT, exactly the way it looks in all of their other apps.

And Henry Roswell''s point about ease of developing responsive apps should be heeded. Take a number of ordinary, equally-trained programmers and have them write significant GUI-based apps in Swing and SWT respectively. The SWT apps are very likely to be fast and responsive. The Swing apps are not likely to be fast and responsive. As a teacher whose students use Swing, I wish that were not the case, but it is.

Stephen


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Kamal Mettananda wrote: According to my experiences, Eclipse provides good look and feel in Linux environments compared to the other IDEs even though Eclipse looks quite pretty under Windows. And even the performance is good under Linux. With the huge set of plug-ins available, Eclipse is becoming the most useful IDE that I have used.
JDJ News Desk wrote: JDJ Archives: Eclipse vs NetBeans - "Point/Counterpoint" Special. While NetBeans ain't perfect, far from it, SWT and Eclipse aren't right for Java, says Joseph Ottinger; a position with which Henry Roswell disagrees. Read the first of a new series of 'Point/Counterpoint' discussions...and join the 80+ readers who have already weighed in on one side or other of the debate.
Anshu Jain wrote: I would say, eclipse sucks on linux as much as linux sucks in itself. I have seen eclipse in action on Linux, and the look and feel and performance is not much worse than look and feel and performance of linux or any other IDE in linux itself. Besides, the bitter truth is that most of the biggies use primarily, the windows platform for application development, where eclipse is the nxtbest thing to JAVA itself. As far as open source goes, netbeans is a good IDE, however they have to make better effort to involve the community in development, like explaining the architecture through articles etc.
Bharath wrote: Eclipse sucks on linux (that's what matters). NetBeans 4.0 continues to be the beauty that it is on Windoze and Linux. SWT throws platform independent rendering out of the window. I'm afraid, that's antithetical to java itself. Or, has IBM come up with SWT to bring in incompatibility, thereby kill Java & hence Sun's lead in this area of technology? You never know. Anyways, eclipse & swt are for windoze zombies. Netbeans is slick and superfast compared to the slow,bulky, memory-hogger that eclipse is. Just use ND 4.0 once and you'll never look elsewhere.
DaveB wrote: Build it on the mac ... and it won't run Our company has been developing applications for Mac for many years. We recently found a troubling problem. We have Java application that has a native component tied to OS X. http://serialio.com/products/SerialMagic/index.htm In the past we built this app (except for the native component) on a Windows PC and packaged it on OS X using JAR Bundler. It was a bit of extra trouble, but everthing worked reliably. In an effort to streamline development we installed netBeans IDE 4.0 for OS X. After considerable effort we found that the JAR file produced by netBeans IDE 4.0 for OS X, will not run on OS X. We can move the identical Java sources to a PC and compile the JAR there, move that JAR back to the Mac, and use the JAR Bundler to create the application, and it works. So in short Build it on the mac ... and it won't run
Krzysiek wrote: I'm not an experienced developer, but I used Eclipse for some plug-in development. I used it on both Windows and (mostly) Linux. Personally I think that gtk version of Eclipse looks cool (maybe the author used motif version, which is really ugly :)) The ui is responsive, and the same I cannot say about NetBeans, but I used it a year ago, version 3.x, so maybe now it's much better. I only remember, that even scrolling text in editor was a nightmare (512 megs of RAM). I like in Eclipse also VisualEditor - I remember, that in NetBeans, if you accidentally deleted some config file, you couldn't edit visually any more. Visual Editor is different - you can work with code, you can work visually, it is synchronized. Cool! I like also GEF and EMF, and many different cool things (I don't want to begin some IDE war again, please :))
Juan JG wrote: I read this article a few months ago, before NetBeans 3.6 was released and agreed with almost all the appreciations in it, specially that Eclipse was slightly better than NetBeans in overall (even that it sucks when running in Linux, my preferred OS). But TODAY (Aug 24/04) after NetBeans 3.6 and 4.0b have been released the story is completely different. NetBeans's group have made an excellent work in these last releases, 3.6 have a lot of improvements and 4.0 is just going to be great (not yet finished). Don't really know what is going to happen with Eclipse project in the near future, maybe they are going to work for a better support on Linux and other OS's, but NetBeans is now a good competitor for them and hope that some day they (NB) will reach "the top" of this fight.
Mark wrote: Having used both Eclipse and Netbeans, my preference leans solidly towards Netbeans. SWT use and code refactoring are about all that Eclipse has to offer me that Netbeans doesn''t and in my experience and SWT is near useless for doing the kind of graphics manipulation that is possible with Swing like setting arbitrary clipping regions or using different affine transformations or customized pixel blending methods. Refactoring I will admit is sort of nice to have, but the Netbeans dev team is already on top of that, with refactoring listed at the very top of the new features list in Netbeans 4.0 (currently in alpha testing and slated for release before the fall of this year). I could theoretically use Eclipse right now and have refactoring today, but there are several other little features in Netbeans I like which _combined_ just aren''t worth giving up just for that one thing, IMO.
Stefan Wagner wrote: I use Eclipse (gtk) on linux and don''t see big differences to eclipse on win2k. What's looking so different, or are the diffences to the motif-Version or XP/ME/98/NT/95/3.11/3.1/2.0 :)
Paul Sundling wrote: Eclipse if great. There are lots of plugins that do a variety of things. Great CVS, Ant, Junit integration, good refactoring. I can also use it for other languages. Even the PHPEclipse plugin works well when I have a client for PHP. Eclipse was the firm IDE that made me finally leave vi behind for most of my devlopment. Sure drag and drop doesn't work on linux eclipse, but it's very usable on windows and linux. BTW for the Vikram, if the problem you descibe in WSAD is the one I've encountered, occasionaly the .project file can get corrupted. Remove .project, close and reopen the project and then rebuild all.
vs wrote: Recently I came across few unexpected problems with WSAD 5.0.1. Converting EJB local to EJB remote messes up with Application.xml. No way to cure, tried many. Atlast ended up deleting and creating new project. Found little strange behaviour for settings related to compile when save the file, between two different machine. Too slow. Cannot dare to use for large project. I think IDEA I liked. One thing good about WSAD/Eclips, is its model. WSAD donot provide correct jndi name for local ejb, which is local:ejb/.... in case of WAS 5.0 , its annoying. And it seems to me IBM one or other way wants to harrash java community by one or other way, why they cannot stick to java:comp/env or ejb/ for jndi naming for ejb, what they want to prove? We know they are stupid, do not have guts to innovate something like java, Its becos of my client I''m using WSAD.......
rhubarb wrote: Okay I use Eclipse so I''m biased. And I don''t want to seem provocative, but Joseph Ottinger''s article and criticism are just totally wrong. The logic is flawed, the conclusion wrong. I say this because his main criticism is that Eclipse looks different on different platforms, whereas NetBeans looks the same. Yes it does, and well it should. Applications should look different on different platforms. Different platforms look different. The applications that run on them should strive be consistent with one another at the expense of being self-consistent across platforms. If the other platform is an ugly platform with ugly-looking applications, then Eclipse should be ugly. Ottinger claims that this represents the "worst of Java". But the promise of Java is "write once run anywhere", not "write once look the same everywhere". (Granted when it comes to GUI applications neithe...
Martin Möbius wrote: Swing vs SWT has nothing to do with Eclipse vs Netbeans vs YourFavoriteIDEHere. The most important reason to use an IDE is productivity. And there every other IDE should keep an eye on eclipse. At the moment Eclipse itself lacks strong support for J2EE development (you can buy some good plugins like www.myeclipseide.com ). Very strange for me are the VS.net supporter in the comments. While VS is good in supporting a wide range of developer activities (html, xml, sql aso.), it lacks even the basic features while coding. Ever tried to rename a class with VS.net-C++? A thing of seconds in Eclipse. Ever tried to create getter&setter? This does not even exist is VS. Userdefined macros (called templates in Eclipse)? Do not exist. Not to name all the more sophisticated things. Like searching for all read &| write accesses to a member. A local history keeping an eye of all you...
Robert Enyedi wrote: As pointed earlier we have a discussion on two levels: 1. Eclipse vs Netbeans and consequently 2. SWT vs Swing. 1. I used both IDEs. I wasn''t satisfied with Netbeans because it''s big and slow. However, since version 3.5 it became faster (and more to come). Eclipse is OK, but it runs slow on Linux. Actually on Linux I cannot really tell the difference between them (I use Mandrake 9.2 with the 2D hardware accelerated Sis driver). The JDK is the latest (1.4.2_02). However, memory consumption at startup is lower for Eclipse (57 megs) compared to Netbeans (97 megs). Now, I have to tell you that I dislike both Netbeans and Eclipse. I used a lot jEdit (www.jedit.org) and is the ideal open source Java editor/IDE. It isn''t backed by "hairy chested" companies but only developers. Actually it resembles to IDEA. Or IDEA resembles to jEdit :-D Hint: IDEA is on the market since 3 years an...
sstrenn wrote: Folks, let''s just admit a few things about Swing. It is STILL SLOW after all of these years. There is virtually no getting around it. I recently loaded JBuilder v9 on my 3GHz, 1GB RAM Pentium 4 machine and I still notice delays when I click on menus. Did I mention it was version 9? And that it was written by the folks at Borland, who certainly know more about Swing than I do. The same delays hold for nearly every other significant Swing app I have used. You rarerly or never seen such delays in non-Swing apps. Swing''s LAF''s are cartoonish and their fonts are laughable. And having GUI controls based on native widgets is a significant advantage. When I deploy an SWT app in a corporate environment that is a mix of Win2000 and WinXP, the file dialogs, for example, all look exactly the way the USERS EXPECT, exactly the way it looks in all of their other apps. And Henry Roswel...
Chang wrote: Charlie, you can view editors side by side by dragging an editor tab to the top, bottom, left or right of its current position. You can have as many rows and columns as you like. I also use Eclipse on OS X so I know it works on that too. Chang
Charlie wrote: I have been using v. 3 of eclipse on Mac OS X and the widgets look and act like the widgets on all the other Mac OS X programs the menu items appear where you would expect them to appear, context menus look and act like the other mac context menus scroll-bars, input boxes, dropdowns all with the the nice aqua interface which presumably take advantage of quartz extreme as does the latest release of awt and swing for OS X. I do have one complaint, I often want to look at editors side by side, how to achieve this in eclipse is not readily apparent to me, if it is indeed possible. I do not expect eclipse should look like a browser or photoshop or anything in particular, it certainly seemed intuitive to me, though. You have the basic framework most applications would require laid out in a straightforward manner ... navigation pane on the left, menus on the top, with a toolbar directly...
Jesse Barnum wrote: This article exactly echoes my complaints of Eclipse. As a Mac OS X user, I''m used to an OS and applications that are intuitive, fast, decent-looking, and which don''t make me feel like I''m getting a chewed-up, hacked windows port. Maybe Eclipse is decent on Windows - never tried it. But the reason that I selected Java in the first place is because it makes the Mac into a first-class citizen, and levels the OS playing field. SWT goes against this level playing field concept. On the Mac, it is *ugly*, counter-intuitive, and has its own peculiar UI that inherits none of the behavior that I''m used to from other applications. My development tool of choice is IDE by a long shot, for the same reasons that many posters have already listed. You may complain about the price, and perhaps for those who program as a hobby or as a labor of love (ie. free), this is a valid complaint. However,...
Jeff Lawson wrote: Hi T. You are right that Eclipse plug-ins could be handled better (e.g. made dynamically loadable/unloadable without restart). Thankfully, the Eclipse developers/developer community agree: check out the specs. for Eclipse 3 (milestone 6 just released; final release Q2, 2004), there''s a slew of great stuff there. The Eclipse Visual Editor provides GUI builder support for Swing (now) and SWT (Q2, 2004).
T. Gibson wrote: One IDE to rule them all: IDEA IntelliJ IntelliJ is hands down the best of breed. It offers just about everything a true developer would want without all of the fluff. The refactoring tool is simply unmatched and I have used but NetBeans and Eclipse. ANT and CVS integration is nice, not a single hippcup. Other than the fact that it is not free I really don''t have a problem with it. Believe me I am not trying to shill for IntelliJ but sometimes you get what you pay for. I would have to give a slight nod to NetBeans for their Swing GUI Builder. The primary problem with Eclipse is that is tries (sometimes unsucessfully) to be everything to everybody. For example the way that plug-ins are handled I think could be a lot cleaner. JDeveloper is cool if you are working with other Oracle products(such as database, BC4J, ect). It is so tightly integrated with other Oracle''s pro...
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