Richard Davies wrote: The UK has a good crop of technology pioneers in cloud computing - for example ElasticHosts, FlexiScale, Flexiant, OnApp - and also some strong government initiatives such as G-Cloud.
We will have to see whether this kind of technical leadership converts into swift mass-market adoption or not.
In many cases, the end of the year gives you time to step back and take stock of the last 12 months. This is when many of us take a hard look at what worked and what did not, complete performance reviews, and formulate plans for the coming year. For me, it is all of those things plus a time when I u...
Get ready, because soon the big knock will be at your door and your boss will be standing there with a single question for you: Should we go with .NET or J2EE for our Web services?
Know a couple of things right off the bat. Big bucks will ride on your answer because, whichever direction your company takes, investment in a Web services platform will represent a substantial IT budget commitment. The other fact is that - smile as you might at what seems the improbable pairing of your boss with a cutting-edge technology question - both Microsoft (with .NET) and the Java community (Sun, Oracle, BEA, and others that have focused on J2EE) are flexing their muscles in a massive publicity campaign that is geared towards prodding high-level corporate executives into making commitments on one side or the other. Get ready because he or she will be pounding at your door soon, mainly because their boss probably will be prodding them for insights into the .NET vs. J2EE streetfight.
Higher-up executives will be keenly watching this decision-making process because they have picked up the buzz that the choice made here may fundamentally shape the enterprise's direction in the coming years. Listen to what Eric Rudder, a Microsoft senior vice president for developer and platform evangelism, said in an interview at Microsoft's Professional Developers Conference in October: "For companies, .NET and the world of XML Web services offer the opportunity to transform the way they do business."
That's a mouthful because Rudder is saying this isn't simply an IT bet; it's a wager on how the enterprise should do business. And know that Java evangelists say much the same about J2EE - which means this decision is one that may put business' future on the line.
The fight intensifies because while both .NET and J2EE will get Web services managers where they need to go, there are huge differences between the solutions that, probably, will make one or the other ideal for a given organization. This dust-up isn't about cosmetics; it's about fundamental technological and business practices because J2EE and .NET are wildly different platforms. Where are the differences?
Making the Choice
Hold on for the answers but recognize at the starting point that the cautious choice for most Web services managers right now is to go with J2EE - if, that is, you want to run with the crowd. Analysts project a big lead for J2EE in enterprise installations throughout 2002, in part because J2EE comes into this race with a multi-year lead in deployments. .NET may be from Microsoft but it's the new kid on the block and, entering Q4 2001, it was still in beta, with no firm dates set for full release. Put those factors together and it's not surprising that Randy Heffner, a vice president at Giga Information Group, says that J2EE probably has a "3 to 1 lead" over .NET inside of the enterprise. Looking ahead, Heffner definitely sees .NET closing that gap ("Microsoft continues to make notable improvements in .NET," says Heffner) but at this moment in time the emphatic leader in large-scale organizations is J2EE by a landslide.
Adds John Magee, senior director of Oracle 9i: "J2EE is running 3 to 1 ahead of .NET. inside enterprise."
David Bernstein, CTO of enterprise apps developer Chordiant Software, says much the same: "Not one customer has asked us about .NET. We are neutral on this. If a customer asked for .NET, we'd have no problem with the request. But nobody is asking."
Should these votes nudge you into the J2EE camp? Not so fast. Microsoft can never be counted out of any fight so quickly and, for sure, the noise from top executives in Redmond, WA, is that Microsoft is staking a big chunk of the company's future on its .NET initiative. In an interview at that October PDC, Bob Muglia, group vice president of the .NET services group, said, ".NET is Microsoft's platform for XML Web services. It is the foundation for the next generation of software." The unmistakable message is that Microsoft is determined to bring .NET up to parity with J2EE in terms of features, performance, and installed base. Then, too, when the Redmond behemoth stakes out a position, smart Web services professionals sit up and take notice. "Microsoft is Microsoft. They will be there in this fight," says Pete Conner, a CTP at IT consultancy Primitive Logic.
Chew on this too: "The reality is that both .NET and J2EE will get users," says Jack Walicki, general manager of HP Web Services Operation and J2EE systems integrator. "It's no leap of faith to envision a company building services on both platforms." Even so, Walicki acknowledges that most businesses probably will standardize on either .NET or J2EE (HP, he says, uses J2EE "because that's the tool we were given"). To make this choice shrewdly, Walicki urges, "The key is to start by understanding what you've done so far, what technologies are you now using, and what do you want to accomplish with a Web services platform?"
"With our customers," he adds, "we don't start by telling them what to do or which to pick. We begin by asking them questions, to figure out where they are and where they want to get to. That's how the best choices will emerge."
A big issue, say the consultants, is that an enterprise that is already running plenty of UNIX or LINUX boxes and has attained a level of comfort with Java, probably will tilt towards J2EE. It's a proven tool for extending legacy systems and applications into Web services. Conversely, a business that is Microsoft-centric - particularly one that's looking to extend the desktop into Web services - probably will want to give .NET a hard look. Are these rules of thumb decisive? Hardly; they're starting points for arriving at a decision, say the analysts, and a lot more investigation needs to be done before any significant enterprise reaches a standardization decision.
Sound off for .NET
Just how do J2EE and .NET differ? J2EE, for instance, is a standard supported by upwards of 18 heavyweight IT players (BEA, IBM, Borland, Sun, Oracle, HP, and many others sell tool sets for implementing J2EE). .NET, by contrast, is a product (it's not yet shrink-wrapped but soon may be) that comes from a sole vendor, Microsoft, and support from major IT players is slender. There's a plus for .NET here, however; implementation will soon likely be as easy as making one call to Microsoft, whereas a J2EE implementation typically involves buying tools from multiple vendors and patching them together. Multi-vendor J2EE solutions are rarely elegant, are never plug and play, and patching them together into viable, working solutions usually isn't quick or easy. Forrester Research, for instance, reports (in "Putting J2EE To Work"), that "22 of the 50 technology decision-makers we surveyed said their J2EE projects took longer than planned, and 23 reported that their projects ran over budget." Simply
put, a J2EE implementation is complex.
That's a common woe raised by independent developers.
Another plus for .NET is that time to market with applications generally will be faster than with J2EE because .NET includes an innovative "ASP.NET" feature that allows user interfaces to be put into different formats with a few mouse clicks and no rewriting of code. Ease of use is a core .NET goal. At the October PDC, for instance, Microsoft chairman Bill Gates, in a dramatic demonstration of .NET capabilities, used ASP.NET to build a Web service, then tested it, created a Windows front-end for it, and deployed it, all inside of 15 minutes.
A third plus for .NET: There are significant performance advantages over J2EE (which remains slow in its execution). Page load times are blisteringly fast say .NET advocates, and even J2EE fans admit that a speed-up in Java's performance is sorely desired. "A J2EE sore spot is performance; it's not where it needs to be," says Steve Baker, program manager for GraphON Corporation, a developer of Web infrastructure software.
Jumping Java Beans
Good as the pro-.NET arguments sound, the arguments in favor of J2EE are equally numerous. A key, says Frank Slootman, VP of product solutions at Borland, is that J2EE has been around for a half-dozen years, it's stable, proven technology that is supported by multiple vendors and, therefore, there is no vendor lock-in. For users, this means they can shop around, solicit bids from various vendors, kick a lot of tires, and keep hunting until exactly the right vendor and solution emerge.
Java, adds Sun's Ralph Galantine, a J2EE marketing manager, is "supported by a community - that's a core strength." As the platform evolves, community members all get to put their two cents in and, says Galantine, that produces a smooth development process.
Other J2EE strengths include:
Java is scalable, says Giga's Heffner. The high-end of .NET deployments remains to be seen, but already some of the world's biggest businesses are successfully running J2EE. It's a platform that's been proven to scale to handle demand. .NET's real-world scalability is unknown.
Java is portable, adds Heffner, and while the "write once, run everywhere" mantra may have been oversold by the early Java advocates (apps written to run on mini-computers likely won't work on mobile phones), there nonetheless is a tangible portability to all Java apps that has yet to be demonstrated with .NET. Microsoft executives talk about easily moving apps from workstations to Win CE handhelds to cell phones, but little evidence of this has been seen in the field.
Decision Points
Persuaded that there genuinely are big differences between J2EE and .NET? Hold on because those differences are about to get bigger still. Case in point: "Security may be the deciding factor when it comes to choosing which to implement," says Baker. He adds, "Security issues need to be resolved with .NET."
J2EE is designed, from the ground up, to afford extremely high levels of security and the industry is in wide agreement that J2EE succeeds. Microsoft, meantime, has offered assurances that .NET will deliver iron-clad security but even so, says Baker, "security has to be a question mark with Microsoft." Hackers and virus writers, of course, have had field days with various Microsoft products and while that's not a conclusive indictment (they've probably put more effort into cracking Microsoft products), it's cause for pause before jumping into a full-fledged .NET implementation before the full security story is known and thoroughly tested.
But a still larger question mark looms: Will .NET offer cross-platform compatibility? Microsoft, again, assures that compatibilities will be wide, but so far .NET stacks up entirely as a Windows application, while J2EE can be tweaked to run on many operating systems ("including Windows! We really are platform independent," says Sun product manager George Grigoryev). For smaller businesses, with limited IT resources, this may not be a tipping point in the decision process, but
for sprawling businesses with diverse IT capabilities, J2EE has OS flexibility. "Java is OS agnostic - that's proven," says Oracle's Magee.
Placing Your Bet
So, which will it be for you? Understand that one way to go badly wrong with this decision is to get sucked into what sometimes seems almost a religious war between the Java, open-source crowd on one side and Microsoft on the other. At day's end, this choice ought to be made not on the basis of religious belief but because the option you pick will work best for your enterprise.
But take heart in this reality: A "final" answer may not be final after all. "Connectivity between .NET and J2EE ought to be possible with XML," elaborates HP's Walicki, "because there is no Microsoft XML or Sun XML, there is only XML." Plainly put, even once decisions are made, Walicki is saying that, technically speaking, ways to bridge the .NET-J2EE divide likely will emerge. So a company that places an initial bet on, say, .NET may later be able to hedge it with a side wager on J2EE.
How safe is that wager? Plenty of uncertainties need to be resolved before the interoperability of .NET with J2EE can be pronounced as a fact - but encouraging news for any Web services developer is that Web services themselves may prove to be the way out of the .NET-J2EE divide. At least that's the opinion of Annrai O'Toole, a cofounder of Irish middleware company IONA who now serves as executive chairman of Cape Clear, a Web services developer. He explains, "Web services offers the industry a solution to the bickering that has created 20 years of IT incompatibility." How? O'Toole goes on, "The arrival of widely accepted standards such as XML provides a common base platform that supersedes religious arguments over operating systems, languages, tools, and applications. Web services prepares the ground for a new era of cooperation, if you will: a third way."
"Web services," adds Conner, "has a huge future" - and a big slice of that future probably will be in creating ways for J2EE and .NET to interact and exchange information. Go ahead, tell your boss that. In other words, now is definitely the time to begin a sizable Web services commitment in order to deal with the fallout of the J2EE-.NET dust-up.
About Robert McGarvey Robert McGarvey has covered the Web since 1994 for magazines ranging from "Technology Review" to "Upside." He is the author of the best-selling book "How To DotCom" and a contributing writer to various SYS-CON publications, including Wireless Business & Technology and Web Services Journal. He can be reached at mcgarvey@sys-con.com.
Reader Feedback: Page 1 of 2
#18
zane commented on 6 Sep 2002
Java Sucks .... .NET rocks!!
Simple really.
#17
gareth jones commented on 28 Nov 2001
I think your comment shows a basic misunderstanding of the J2EE architecture. If you are using a JSP to display results then the request will usually go via a servlet and/or will also be a named resource rather than an actual classname - hence fewer ".jsp" suffixes
#16
jarrod roberson commented on 27 Nov 2001
for one thing, most if not ALL jsp projects I have worked on use some sort of mapping to remove the .jsp from the url, so your numbers mean NOTHING, actually they mean LESS than NOTHING simply because the cause one to draw an incorrect conclusion from incomplete and flawed data collection.
#15
Peter Bertilsson commented on 20 Nov 2001
Thanks Michele for the amusing message.
Quote ".NET really works", this is a big joke. .NET today is mostly slideware. Yes, you can propably glue together a small demo web service in a .NET beta. But I for one wouldn't even consider using it for real applications.
I have been a MSDN subscriber for 10+ years and have been following Microsofts different products for a long time. My opinion is that Microsoft starts talking about new technologies 2-3 years before they actually deliver anything. So we still have 1-2 years to go before .NET will amount to anything.
#14
Erik Ostermueller commented on 19 Nov 2001
The Java platform may or may not be proprietary. This is a matter of opinion.
The fact is that open source comminities and universties choose java. Finally we have a lingua franca for all operating systems, all platforms.
Let's all use the same programming language as much as we can. This way, we can learn from each others' successes and failures. When a specialized language is required, use it. Otherwise, lets use the same language. Use java.
>IBM signed the specifications but still >has not delivered anything.
Typical microsoft propaganda. IBM has had publically available implementations of web services specs *in Java* for many months now. See the Web Services toolkit, available at http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/tech/webservicestoolkit
#12
Roderick L. Barnes commented on 17 Nov 2001
.NET is what you are looking for. For the Java zealot (like myself) it is a testimony to the industrial senility of Microsoft. Who else would respond to the success of J2EE with yet more proprietary technology? Who else would create NEW deployment odologies that require you to install platform specific DLLs?
For the Microsoft developer it is more than an answer to J2EE... it is the trumph card. It speaks to his need for a efficient ways to deliver applications and provide services. Nevermind the fact that it was crafted by the nefarious Microsoft for their notorious software; it doesn't matter. What matters is that the need for a reason to believe in Microsoft's development tools and odologies has been given. More importantly, it steps beyond J2EE with cool lingo and good ideas... web services.
Can J2EE compete? It has won! However, if it does not quickly adapt and improve it will go the way of the Mac, the Palm and every other technology that dared to battle with Mr. Bill's machine. J2EE has escaped the gravity of mediocrity and has achieved an orbit of success. But it has to do more to make J2EE accessible to other technologies? The JDBC-ODBC bridge was instrumental in helping people to see the benefits of using Java; they could leverage their current investments (ODBC drivers and databases) while investigating the promises of Sun's evangelists. Where is the EJB-VB bridge? Where is the EJB-C++ bridge? Where is the EJB-PHP bridge? Where is the EJB-Perl bridge? I know that EJB is a distributed object technology and that VB, C++, PHP and Perl are programming languages. But until we can easily make our EJB solutions available to developer's of all these languages they might as well use CORBA to access our solution. Use XML? Sure, but give Mikey (Microsoft Developer dimunitive) the wrapper that makes is od invocations through VB talk to EJB via XML. Don't ask Mikey to create DTDs for every od he wants to call.
While Palm fights Visor the Windows CE platform forges ahead and will probably defeat both of them. While Borland's IDE team fights with Visual Age and Forte, Microsoft's .NET platform is getting better and better. While Weblogic faces off against SilverStream, Websphere and the other J2EE application servers IIS and the motley crue of associated technologies continues to improve.
.NET is what you are looking for. For the enlightened (Java developers) it is yet another reason to say that Microsoft is .NOT the technology to build solutions on. For the Microsoft Developer, until their is more unity in our camp and more accessibility to our treasures, it is the new hope. Let us not waste any more energy deriding it. Rather let us make the bridge technologies that help ease the transition to our way of thinking.
Roderick L. Barnes
Sun Certified Java Programmer
Sun Certified Architect for Java Technology
#11
Jeff commented on 17 Nov 2001
If I have learned anything from the past its that if I develop using Microsofts platform, I better have a big budget. Every year spending enormous amounts of money for upgrades I don't need just to be able to offer my wares. I don't like Microsofts mandatory incompatible versioning practices. Beware, if your writing .net today or this year, next year you will be spending time and money rewriting your components. With Java, I can still run the same applications I wrote 2 years ago, and they run better now than before. No one can say that about Microsoft platform!
#10
William GaDeros commented on 16 Nov 2001
since when did JSP take the lead over IIS/ASP. Hotbot indicates ASP pages outnumber pages with JSP extensions 8-1. JSP is third behind both asp and cfm. Recent trends indicate this lead is expanding NOT closing. The two fastest increasing extensions - aspx and php.
Hey genious - look at the extension on this site. If JSP is so good why don't they use it for Java Developer's Journal?
and speaking of kinks - do you think JSP is a mature technology? If it were a Microsoft product you would be screaming for a service pack but since it is from Sun everybody takes their lumps. Try reading a flat file with JSP and adding records to a Sybase Sys 11 database - see ya in 3 weeks.
People on this board need to get a clue.
#9
Rocky Road commented on 16 Nov 2001
whoever says Java is not proprietary must be delusional or not know what the word means.
Despite the fact that sun hosts a token community for non-Java open source projects and continues to attempt to brainwash people into thinking freeware (staroffice) = openware, Java was, is and will remain a proprietary technology controlled 100% by Sun and not affected by any standards body.
and to the guy who said J2EE has a record for on-time, on-budget - you must be joking. Most of the Java based .coms that failed died still struggling with massive productivity issues still looking for competant Java developers who fully understood and who could implement the technology. EJB is not a technology that can be implemented in "Internet time" a sad irony for the company that put the dot in dot com.
#8
Paul Bienick commented on 14 Nov 2001
Where is Microsoft's version of the Java Community Process? http://www.jcp.org/ Java proprietary? I think not.
Also, who cares what Sun is doing re: Web services? You can build fully functional Web services based on industry standards TODAY with several production application servers (WebLogic, WebSphere, IONA, etc.) and there are plenty of tools (AltoWeb, CapeClear, etc.) that make it Web service creation very easy. It's also pretty darn easy to create them without these tools.
.NET is still in beta, and frankly, you'd have to be out of your mind to run .NET on non-MS platforms. .NET is just another MS lock-in strategy, regardless of what they say.
And the CLR? Gimme a break. It's a solution in search of a problem.
Finally, anyone who claims that one platform will wipe out the other doesn't understand the industry. There is room for both, and both will succeed (even though J2EE has a HUGE lead).
Sun Java support is in beta release 0.5 and not here today. IBM signed the specifications but still has not delivered anything.
On the other side .NET really works and the current release candidate looks good.
I have invested in SOAP as the platform that should have kept together our Java and Windows teams, but our Java projects are all on hold or canceled. We are delivering .NET web services today and it is pretty easy.
I have been strongly pushing Java in the past, but it is not as easy as it used to be.
By the way there should be an open source .NET (www.go-mono.org). If and when it's real, it might be choice #1, because Java is just another proprietary platform.
#6
John Hoffler commented on 12 Nov 2001
While I agree that the System.Web.UI namespace has really cool stuff when used in conjunction with VS.NET, .NET overall is missing most of the EE in J2EE. The most important deficiency is lack of anything like EJBs. The built-in transaction support, scalability, separation of development vs. deployment responsibility, etc. is sorely needed in .NET. I think these issues will have a significant impact on time-to-market of enterprise-level applications.
Exception support in .NET is broken. Overridden methods can throw exceptions that weren't thrown by their parents. Also, exceptions aren't declared, so there's no way to know what exceptions to catch without written documentation or source code. For enterprise development, .NET exceptions are nearly useless.
My previous post discussed .NET's "version" support, so I won't repeat it here.
.NET security is subverted by its execution model. .NET executables are invoked directly from the command line. It's the executable's job to load the CLR (.NET runtime). There is no way for the end-user to know that "downloaded.exe" is actually a .NET program (subject to .NET security policies) vs. a regular executable (ready to delete every file on the hard drive).
There are many subtle differences between J2EE and .NET, but these few are real show-stoppers, IMHO.
#5
John Hoffler commented on 12 Nov 2001
I tend to agree with Mr. Cvijetic. Firstly, we work in an industry in which over half of all projects fail outright. In that light, J2EE's on-time on-budget record looks pretty good.
To reply to ljubomir, like COM, .NET "solves" the versioning problem by moving that responsibility from the runtime to the user. In J2EE my code can demand version 4.0 or higher of MyNeededWidget. In .NET the CLR only loads the MyNeededAssembly.dll that I built with. For shared assemblies the user can create a .config file to specify a different dll, but maintenance of this file is beyond the capability (an motivation) of the typical end-user.
If a new version of MyNeededAssembly.dll is to be deployed, it will have to be renamed or placed in a different directory than the previous version. Otherwise, all existing dependent applications will cease to function. If Microsoft doesn't work out an exception of the Framework classes, when .NET 1.1 ships we'll all have to keep .NET 1.0 and 1.1 on our machines or quickly write .config files for every single .NET application we have!
#4
G Kline commented on 12 Nov 2001
Putting aside the fact that we are still about a year off from the standards of Web Services being finished, .NET is in its infancy while J2EE has already been implemented in production systems. With the exception of MTS, Microsoft products of this class tend to require several years before the "kinks" are all worked out.
J2EE *is* ahead and will probably remain so. As an analogy, consider the arena of application servers. COM/IIS fell short of scalability expectations, and now EJB/JSP servers have taken the lead. And with EJB, you have a choice!
gareth jones wrote: I think your comment shows a basic misunderstanding of the J2EE architecture. If you are using a JSP to display results then the request will usually go via a servlet and/or will also be a named resource rather than an actual classname - hence fewer ".jsp" suffixes
jarrod roberson wrote: for one thing, most if not ALL jsp projects I have worked on use some sort of mapping to remove the .jsp from the url, so your numbers mean NOTHING, actually they mean LESS than NOTHING simply because the cause one to draw an incorrect conclusion from incomplete and flawed data collection.
Peter Bertilsson wrote: Thanks Michele for the amusing message.
Quote ".NET really works", this is a big joke. .NET today is mostly slideware. Yes, you can propably glue together a small demo web service in a .NET beta. But I for one wouldn't even consider using it for real applications.
I have been a MSDN subscriber for 10+ years and have been following Microsofts different products for a long time. My opinion is that Microsoft starts talking about new technologies 2-3 years before they actually deliver anything. So we still have 1-2 years to go before .NET will amount to anything.
Erik Ostermueller wrote: The Java platform may or may not be proprietary. This is a matter of opinion.
The fact is that open source comminities and universties choose java. Finally we have a lingua franca for all operating systems, all platforms.
Let's all use the same programming language as much as we can. This way, we can learn from each others' successes and failures. When a specialized language is required, use it. Otherwise, lets use the same language. Use java.
Bert Fromage wrote: >IBM signed the specifications but still >has not delivered anything.
Typical microsoft propaganda. IBM has had publically available implementations of web services specs *in Java* for many months now. See the Web Services toolkit, available at http://www.alphaworks.ibm.com/tech/webservicestoolkit
Roderick L. Barnes wrote: .NET is what you are looking for. For the Java zealot (like myself) it is a testimony to the industrial senility of Microsoft. Who else would respond to the success of J2EE with yet more proprietary technology? Who else would create NEW deployment odologies that require you to install platform specific DLLs?
For the Microsoft developer it is more than an answer to J2EE... it is the trumph card. It speaks to his need for a efficient ways to deliver applications and provide services. Nevermind the fact that it was crafted by the nefarious Microsoft for their notorious software; it doesn't matter. What matters is that the need for a reason to believe in Microsoft's development tools and odologies has been given. More importantly, it steps beyond J2EE with cool lingo and good ideas... web services.
Can J2EE compete? It has won! However, if it does not quickly adapt and...
Jeff wrote: If I have learned anything from the past its that if I develop using Microsofts platform, I better have a big budget. Every year spending enormous amounts of money for upgrades I don't need just to be able to offer my wares. I don't like Microsofts mandatory incompatible versioning practices. Beware, if your writing .net today or this year, next year you will be spending time and money rewriting your components. With Java, I can still run the same applications I wrote 2 years ago, and they run better now than before. No one can say that about Microsoft platform!
William GaDeros wrote: since when did JSP take the lead over IIS/ASP. Hotbot indicates ASP pages outnumber pages with JSP extensions 8-1. JSP is third behind both asp and cfm. Recent trends indicate this lead is expanding NOT closing. The two fastest increasing extensions - aspx and php.
Hey genious - look at the extension on this site. If JSP is so good why don't they use it for Java Developer's Journal?
and speaking of kinks - do you think JSP is a mature technology? If it were a Microsoft product you would be screaming for a service pack but since it is from Sun everybody takes their lumps. Try reading a flat file with JSP and adding records to a Sybase Sys 11 database - see ya in 3 weeks.
People on this board need to get a clue.
Rocky Road wrote: whoever says Java is not proprietary must be delusional or not know what the word means.
Despite the fact that sun hosts a token community for non-Java open source projects and continues to attempt to brainwash people into thinking freeware (staroffice) = openware, Java was, is and will remain a proprietary technology controlled 100% by Sun and not affected by any standards body.
and to the guy who said J2EE has a record for on-time, on-budget - you must be joking. Most of the Java based .coms that failed died still struggling with massive productivity issues still looking for competant Java developers who fully understood and who could implement the technology. EJB is not a technology that can be implemented in "Internet time" a sad irony for the company that put the dot in dot com.
Paul Bienick wrote: Where is Microsoft's version of the Java Community Process? http://www.jcp.org/ Java proprietary? I think not.
Also, who cares what Sun is doing re: Web services? You can build fully functional Web services based on industry standards TODAY with several production application servers (WebLogic, WebSphere, IONA, etc.) and there are plenty of tools (AltoWeb, CapeClear, etc.) that make it Web service creation very easy. It's also pretty darn easy to create them without these tools.
.NET is still in beta, and frankly, you'd have to be out of your mind to run .NET on non-MS platforms. .NET is just another MS lock-in strategy, regardless of what they say.
And the CLR? Gimme a break. It's a solution in search of a problem.
Finally, anyone who claims that one platform will wipe out the other doesn't understand the industry. There is room for both, and both will succeed (even thou...
Michele Costabile wrote: Sun Java support is in beta release 0.5 and not here today. IBM signed the specifications but still has not delivered anything.
On the other side .NET really works and the current release candidate looks good.
I have invested in SOAP as the platform that should have kept together our Java and Windows teams, but our Java projects are all on hold or canceled. We are delivering .NET web services today and it is pretty easy.
I have been strongly pushing Java in the past, but it is not as easy as it used to be.
By the way there should be an open source .NET (www.go-mono.org). If and when it's real, it might be choice #1, because Java is just another proprietary platform.
John Hoffler wrote: While I agree that the System.Web.UI namespace has really cool stuff when used in conjunction with VS.NET, .NET overall is missing most of the EE in J2EE. The most important deficiency is lack of anything like EJBs. The built-in transaction support, scalability, separation of development vs. deployment responsibility, etc. is sorely needed in .NET. I think these issues will have a significant impact on time-to-market of enterprise-level applications.
Exception support in .NET is broken. Overridden methods can throw exceptions that weren't thrown by their parents. Also, exceptions aren't declared, so there's no way to know what exceptions to catch without written documentation or source code. For enterprise development, .NET exceptions are nearly useless.
My previous post discussed .NET's "version" support, so I won't repeat it here.
.NET security is subverted by its execution m...
John Hoffler wrote: I tend to agree with Mr. Cvijetic. Firstly, we work in an industry in which over half of all projects fail outright. In that light, J2EE's on-time on-budget record looks pretty good.
To reply to ljubomir, like COM, .NET "solves" the versioning problem by moving that responsibility from the runtime to the user. In J2EE my code can demand version 4.0 or higher of MyNeededWidget. In .NET the CLR only loads the MyNeededAssembly.dll that I built with. For shared assemblies the user can create a .config file to specify a different dll, but maintenance of this file is beyond the capability (an motivation) of the typical end-user.
If a new version of MyNeededAssembly.dll is to be deployed, it will have to be renamed or placed in a different directory than the previous version. Otherwise, all existing dependent applications will cease to function. If Microsoft doesn't work out an except...
G Kline wrote: Putting aside the fact that we are still about a year off from the standards of Web Services being finished, .NET is in its infancy while J2EE has already been implemented in production systems. With the exception of MTS, Microsoft products of this class tend to require several years before the "kinks" are all worked out.
J2EE *is* ahead and will probably remain so. As an analogy, consider the arena of application servers. COM/IIS fell short of scalability expectations, and now EJB/JSP servers have taken the lead. And with EJB, you have a choice!
ljubomir wrote: Looks that reader never touch or see .NET framework, because is he was just working for couple hours he will recognize that there is no problem anymore with versions of dll. The original author was talking about J2EE and .NET not old Microsoft technologies.
You should better sit down and work with .NET and after that compare J2EE and .NET.
Zoran Cvijetic wrote: Author states that implementing .NET solution will likely be as easy as placing a call to Microsoft, while J2EE solutions need to be patched together.
I am sorry, but looks like author does not have experience implementing Microsoft solutions. In my many years of experience designing and implementing Microsoft based solutions job was never even close to simple. Although all components did come from same vendor (operating system, database, transaction server, development tools, etc) making them work together was a never ending nightmare worsened by random surprises called "service packs".
Implementing any J2EE solution of serious size is not easy either. However, with J2EE at least I can change vendors if I am having problems with something. With Microsoft I do not have that choice at all.
Pawel Glowacki wrote: I found Your article on the battle
between J2EE and .Net very interesting,
but I was missing at least one note
regarding Borland products, that are
the perfect option for developers
who want to take the best out of these
two competing worlds.
You may find these links interesting:Borland Announces Web Services Strategy for Java
Application Delivery Strategies
Borland Cares
best regards,
Pawel Glowacki
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