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yourfanat wrote: I am using another tool for Oracle developers - dbForge Studio for Oracle. This IDE has lots of usefull features, among them: oracle designer, code competion and formatter, query builder, debugger, profiler, erxport/import, reports and many others. The latest version supports Oracle 12C. More information here.
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In many cases, the end of the year gives you time to step back and take stock of the last 12 months. This is when many of us take a hard look at what worked and what did not, complete performance reviews, and formulate plans for the coming year. For me, it is all of those things plus a time when I u...
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Top Reasons Why People Think Java Un-Cool - Debunked
Top Reasons Why People Think Java Un-Cool - Debunked

Paul Graham's Great Hackers essay has really touched a lot of people's nerves. The wires are choked with people giving their point of view.

Yet again, though, I have had to stop and think - what is it about Java that makes people brand it as the most un-cool language on earth? I have had friends look at me like I was a poor sod for "having to" develop in Java. So, let me list all the reasons I can think why people consider Java un-cool.

Java has considerably fewer surprises and prefers not to add complexity to the language for rarely used features thereby resulting in a language where you cannot really make your friends go ga-ga at amazingly brief programming constructs. You need to write something substantial [like Gosling's Huckster] for them be to impressed with your programming abilities and not your language knowledge. This is probably the biggest reason Java is un-cool. It's too easy (although programming or software development remains as tough as ever). Java was always touted as the language that the "average" IT programmer can use. It's such a language-for-the-masses that yet again, it fails the "geek" test. And if you use Java, so do you.

Java has been considered slow for ages. The earlier allegations (1995) were true. However, with the recent advancements in the JVMs from Sun and IBM, Java runs pretty close to C/C++. Check this benchmark. Contrary to this, there are other benchmarks that prove that Java is slower. All considered, it would be fair to say that Java cannot be considered "slow" anymore, yet its stuck with the label.
How cool is to be the jock with the second fastest race-car in the block?

Swing disasters continue to give Java a bad name. Swing is a brilliant, although hard to learn, API. But the vast majority of Swing applications are so bad that they give Swing and therefore Java a bad name.

Java is a strongly typed language therefore you have to tell the compiler exactly what you intend to use. And if you make a mistake in the way you use it, the compiler has the guts to tell you that you were wrong. Too much chaperoning?

Java has a vast library that is available to all Java developers without any ambiguity. Thus, if you wrote yet another Map you would not be considered a data structures guru by Java programmers but a guy who hasn't heard of java.util.*.

Java did not have a good IDE that compared with MS Visual Studio. I think this one was true. I am not so sure it is any more with IntelliJ. The absence of good tools probably pushed away a lot of good programmers.

Java is popular. Anything that is popular has lost its elite status and therefore is not cool.

Java is an application programming platform. You cannot do cool things like device drivers and games, etc (until recently - but Java gaming is coming in a big way).
 

About Sachin Hejip
Sachin Hejip, an architect with Sonic Software, is currently part of Sonic's ESB tooling intiative where he is leading a team of engineers develop Eclipse plug-ins to take Sonic ESB development to the next level. A recipient of Pramati's highest award for technical excellence, the Pramati Fellowship, he has been a core member of the Pramati engineering team where he led the Web Server intiative and has been a key member of the Pramati Studio R&D team. He has a keen interest in development tools and was the architect of the IDE's parser framework, which formed the base of his implementation of the code completion and Java/J2EE Refactoring tool set. He has designed and developed Pramati's paradigm of J2EE development called "Express Development" including the server-agnostic deployment framework.

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If Java was cool, this web site would be run on Java and not Cold Fusion.

I read Graham''s stuff...seems kind of silly, wasn''t sure if it was a joke or serious stuff. Who cares about what HACKERs want/like? What about SOFTWARE ENGINEERS? I work on a huge application that would be impossible in Python but Java makes it possibly--and with less bugs than C++ would give us, by far. I was a C++ developer for YEARS and now after 2 1/2 years of JAVA, I hope I don''t ever have to go back...Java isn''t COOL--it''s BETTER. (Of course, there are some things we still have to do with C/C++...but we''ll live with those.)

I actually really like Java, cool or uncool. I write shell scripts for common tasks/utilities on Unix, use Perl where it gets a little more complicated or I need something that takes input, modifies it and puts it somewhere else.

Started Java in ''97 when it was mostly used for silly applets.

But most of my job consists of web-applications. With the WORA I can write it on a workstation/desktop whether on Win2K laptop, or Linux workstation, or whatever, and still deploy without problems to any target application server on pretty much any platform. I can see benefits in EJBs if you''re going to deploy against load-balanced massive systems of say 100+ servers, but just using servlets, JSPs and JavaBeans I can drop it all in a single WAR and deploy as many times by ftp-ing it to the server. In TomCat that''s enough, for those commercial ones I may have to register it once in an admin console... I call that easy...

Recently started doing some MIDlets after I bought a Java enabled phone for my wife, and hacked something together in a day or so. It was real easy to just refer to the J2ME API docs and realize that I sometimes I had to do things a little differently (especially String vs. StringBuffer operations) but the fact that I didn''t have to learn a new language was massive in being able to quickly build something. I thought that _was_ really cool.

Don''t understand this clamoring for IDEs at all. I used to be an exclusive Emacs/Textpad/Vi person, but now use Eclipse as an editor mostly because it can package things easily. But as a consultant not being able to know in advance what tools are around, when push comes to shove any text editor, a JDK and TomCat is all I need for development. And all of that is FREE!!! so even if I don''t have these things with me, I can download it all in 20mins-1 hr. Useful...

Don''t know about Python, Ruby, etc. or even PHP because really in the enterprise space I just do not come accross it.

Basically, for me Java is a great tool and enabler. I like that it''s compiled, making me a little less concerned about hackers breaking into my webserver and changing things. Security is almost more important than functionality in my world, and Java on the web is a lot harder to hack/crack by malicious users than say IIS+ASP or CGI-scripts.

BTW: I actually love the Java Exception mechanism. I can write my APIs to be called from the JSP pages or servlets and make my Exceptions real indicative. That totally helps when you have more than one person working on the same application.

People need to spend less time worrying about looking "cool" and more time getting the job done--regardless of which language they use. Regardless of how "cool" you look today and which language you use today, you WILL be using something different in a handful of years, whether a different language or a shovel.

coolness != good language

coolness is about doing things like:
- low level memory manipulation; because only a cool programmer would ever even know why you would want to do this.
- Write really tight, very fast algorithms.

I agree that java is faster to write code in, but coolness is related to having complete control over your computer or being the latest trend. Assembler / C / C++ are still cool because the allow this. .NET is cool because it is the new kid on the block. Business efficiency is a totally different question than coolness.

Java was cool in the 90s because it made the web come alive, worked well with internet technologies, etc. Other languages appear to be catching up, and java has reached the masses. There is nothing unique about java that continues to make it cool; productive and useful yes, but productive no.

Java is hot.

What''s cool got to do with it? Well depends on how you define "Cool". Cool is making money; Cool is constant improvement of your programming skills (theory and practice) outside of your day job toolset. Why can''t you do both?

to Doug Marker: glad to hear you still use Smalltalk. If the money is good, you will find good Smalltalkers ;)

I spend much of my time with XML and web services these days. I make money from Java, and will for the foreseeable future though I''m starting to make money from .Net. Before Java, I made money from Smalltalk, before that C (yuck!), before that mainframe assembler (e.g., macro-level CICS). Add in some COBOL, Prolog and VB into the Make Money mix...Before retirement or death I will probably make money from some language not on this list...

I would gladly take a job again in any of the above technologies (and those below) if the money, location and contract are right. Taking care of your family is Cool.

Now for my own sanity, I continue to learn and experiment with simplicity, elegance and advanced concepts in a number of languages. I think these activities serve to broaden and deepen my abilities and have applicability to my mainstream programming efforts.

My favorite language (and from what I see that won''t change anytime soon) is Smalltalk. Like many others these days I''m rediscovering Lisp; and I check on the Prolog world regularly. A colleague turned me on to Erlang. And then there''s Forth.

It all comes down to personal choice...ain''t freedom wonderful?

I liked ADA because it had strong typing and it was hard to make mistakes that the compiler didn''t find. JAVA is better than C for the same reason. I am responsibile for building Enterprise software that has to work or major companies business will be down. Unfortunately, ADA is not an option in the environment we work.

Maybe we should have another effort like the one that produced ADA to get a better language for Web Services. It was a major cooperative effort documented in the SIGPLAN Notices (ACM''s Special Interest Group on Languages).

And, we should develop more specialized languages for different lines of business and environments. Large class libraries are neat, but the bang for the buck is in adding things to the language that can be error checked at compile time, to reduce defects, as the defects are the largest source of cost in software development.

What'' languages are cool? My intuitive gut feeling: A maverick or young gun should rework the next version of Flash Actionscript 2.0 (created originally by Gary Grossman)and put that in synthesis with an incarnation of LISP. The large metaphor - new possibilities. Place a renegade ''motion graphics'' visual language paradigm (Flash) combined with a renegade AI paradigm (LISP). I think this could open new horizons.

For any one that makes a living as a programmer, Java offers more openings, best $$$, and best prospects in the next 3 years. It is no comparison, with COBOL, C, C++ or even C#. Yes, there are more jobs in C# now, but look around your company, how many of them are programming in C#? The number is dismal. Reasons? Very simple, companies try to save $$$. Java has been used for IT Enterprise development since 1997. It works extremely well. It is the same reasons that COBOL is still around after 50 years.
We can continue to argue good and bad points about Java. But if you would like to pay rent, you better learn Java, Oracle and Unix. The three pieces work well together. Without one of them, it will fail. The portal, web server and related projects .... will provide jobs and $$$ for you and your family before the Indian programmers eat your lunch!!!

What a pointless discussion. Being a software developer, which I am, regardless of what language you use will never be considered cool. If anyone thinks they are cool because they use a more complex and lower level language than Java has got some serious problems. Just write your software and forget about whether you''re being cool or not because the answer is simple - you''re not!

To those who are having a hard time with Swing, have you tried TableLayout? You have to retrieve it from Sun''s web site as it''s not included with the JDK. It made my life a lot easier. Its layered on top of GridBagLayout and hides most of the complexity.

Over the years I''ve seen programmers using languages like C/C++/Perl that leave a wake of bugs behind them often times never coming to the understanding that they had bugs or at the very least never understanding why they had them. For those who have programmed in these languages and that did understand their bugs, when you move to Java you will come to see that the number of bugs you have decreases appreciably, but still not as much as you might at first assume. For instance, memory leaks caused by not explicitly freeing memory in C/C++ are replaced by memory leaks due to dangling references in Java. Overall though, my life has become much easier with Java. More importantly, my dependence upon Microsoft products has dwindled to almost zero. I''m nearly Microsoft free and its liberating!

Compared to C#, Java may not seem cool. But try doing any enterprise development with .Net and you realize just how uncool Microsoft is. .Net is still trying to figure out this space and Microsoft doesn''t have a map that they are sharing with anyone just yet (Indigo/Whidbey/Long Horn). Microsoft is where Java was 4 years ago. The .Net opensource community is really just emerging withouut Microsoft help and Microsoft has no middle tier solution. Selling IIS through ASP.NET and SQLServer through ADO.NET without any business object container strategy means that for middleware there is no there there.

I have been doing java since the past 3 yrs now!
Java GUI is not too good. Technology will always have a trade off. Java Backends are really the best. J2EE for example. "right once run anywhere".
c/c++ has the capability far more then any language.
Java uses Natives. When Natives are C++ then there is no comparision. Java and C++ go togehter and thats what makes the future more realistic and reliable.
Let the communities break free from vendor icons and be free enough to make both of them work together..Thats what will make every one happy/contributing and productive!


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jhook wrote: Java is cool, but I'm tired of having to learn 5 different ways of doing one thing. Not only playing a guessing game of possible solutions, but once picking a solution, books tell you to wrap the solution up in a facade, adding more complexity to your application. That's not to say that patterns are patterns, in any language, but with .Net you are left with the confidence of a strong single leader, Microsoft. Sun and Java, on the other hand, is led by commitee. Smart people are tossing API's out there left and right that are nothing more than ideas-- J2EE for example. Again, I'm left with picking a vendor/solution. With Microsoft, things are pretty much set in stone via the tools they provide. This is how .Net handles MVC, this is how .Net handles Database access, this is how .Net cooks a turkey. I would feel more confident know that our implementation was written on a single st...
Serguei Bakhteiarov wrote: I think (as Wittgenstein too :-) that the "languages defines your mindset". This applies to programming languages as well. However, judging is the language tool or not is sort of meaningless, because "underneath" it is still, well a bitcode. So from this stand point any computer language is a tool. Mixing the tools (languages) to produce bitcode is perfectly fine and it happens all the time, especially in "big" projects :-) cheers, serge
tim wrote: I think Ivan's comments (14 September 2004) are not correct. (Or maybe irrelavent?) "Why so many people think, that programming languages are tools? Programming languages are aptly named *languages*: they form your way of thinking." If your choice of language forms your way of thinking, perhaps you aren't working from the abstract solution first... And, while it is true that "When you are solving a software problem in a medium to big project, you most often cannot change the languge in the middle of the project."--there are a lot of other things you can't change, too. However, in Java projects, sometimes it is necessary to solve a problem with another language/tool, such as C, and invoke it with native interface. Or, even more common, one also programs in SQL, XML, XSLT, Javascript, etc. all within the same project...many languages...many tools, the right tool for the right...
Ivan wrote: Why so many people think, that programming languages are tools? Programming languages are aptly named *languages*: they form your way of thinking. When you are solving a software problem in a medium to big project, you most often cannot change the languge in the middle of the project. You have to solve it *in* Java or *in* C# or whatever language the project is written in. Tools are not like that. You start to search for the best tool to solve the problem, and not thinking to yourself "should I hammer it from the front or from the back side?" Nor you try to build the whole building with a jigsaw. So, programming languages are more unlike tools in your toolbox.
Darren wrote: Please excuse the rants on my last post. Paul's essay touched a nerve. It doesn't matter if Java is cool or not. It doesn't matter what tools you use as long as you are still creating something wonderful. Mr Graham should know this if he considers himself an authority on hackers. If he doesn't, its his loss.
Darren Pye wrote: I would really like to see Paul's resume. It sounds to me like he has no experience in the real world working on anything other then small simple problems. That's not great programming, thats hobbyist coding. He seems to have had a very cushy and narrowly focused set of projects and problems that he has dealt with. In that scenario...SOME of what he said is valid. The Disney land he describes could work. But what about the real world with real complex problems to solve? With his beliefs I find it almost impossible to believe he has had any real part in solving a serious software problem. Oddly, his views remind me of my own back in the early 80's. I was a hobbyist programmer considered a wizard among my peers, with an ideal of the perfect working environment. However, I was working on small finite (and now that I know better, simple problems)...then I turned 12 and starte...
Rajitha wrote: Even I feel this a pointless discussion. With my experience what I feel is, no language is similar. Each one is strong on its own areas and there are applications where one can perform to the most and others not. So comparing a language with another language is completely pointless.
perrin wrote: Java is verbose, pushed by totally uncool corporate goons, and not open source. Duh. However, Graham's criticisms, while funny, are almost completely wrong. There are lots of good hackers using Java, and all you need to do to see this is look at the open source Java community. There is a willingness among them to admit that some problems are actually complex and are not best solved by writing three lines of code (often in a bizarre newly-invented syntax). I find this acknowledgement somewhat lacking among many Perl programmers who I meet.
Tom wrote: Java is a ver cool simply from the aspect that it brought a new paradigm to the forefront. The lofty ambition of being able to write once and run anywhere was achieved with the exception of little quirks here and there. The defragmentation of the JVM from the published standards killed the WORA process - that is not the fault of Java but of the JVM writers. The simple fact that it can cause such an uproar from those both for and against the language/platform is a tribute to how cool it really is. Remember, it is just a tool, not for everyone or every situation, but like any tool, when used properly it will do the job in a most satisfactory way. Good computing everyone.....
Gregg Saffell wrote: I taught Java to undergraduate business students last year and was surprised to learn the extent to which C# was perceived as being easier to learn. I think the ease of finding, downloading, and installing the JVM and an IDE along with the learning curve associated with the IDE were the main culprits. Microsoft had made all of the above very easy for the university and students whereas the Java side required a good deal more effort on the part of the teacher and the students. For Java to be a "cool" technology beyond the world of computer specialists, a lot more will have to be done to flatten out the learning curves of both the language and a free IDE. Do you realize how much you have to master just to be able to write even a console oriented Hello World program? Until an application of at least minimal complexity can be implemented easily by a novice, the rest of the world is no...
Kripal Singh wrote: look at the long list of comments . java has maximum number of followers and is think it has beaten c++/c/c# .
Mark Watson wrote: Is Java a little un-cool? Sure. So what. I love doing server side Java. Is Java my favorite language? No. That would probably be Common Lisp. The thing is, for most of the work that I do, Java has several advantages: Great free platform support for web presentation, SOAP, XML-RPC, asynchronous messaging (JMS), etc. There are many skilled Java programmers: when I build a system for a customer, I can feel confident that maintenance will not be a problem. Common Lisp has advantages also (extremely fast compiled code, small runtime overhead, rich standard library, very terse language) for some types of development (I use Lisp for working on algorithms, natural language processing, and other problems where I am breaking new ground - Lisp is great for experimental programming).
Ivan wrote: Practically, every big and most medium-sized java programs I''ve seen, use code generation. For example, GUI builders, persistence frameworks, etc. Code generators have the following problems: * They are hard to write. You will make a code generator only if the only alternative is to "generate" the code manually. * They don''t work well with other code generators: you cannot have a persistent GUI class for example. (I know, it''s a silly example, you''d want to make only the model persistent, etc. but the argument is still valid, I''m just to lazy to come up with better example :)). * Code generators don''t work well with the IDE. The IDE will know only about the generated code, and not about the *source*. This is partly because IDEs in Java have code generators on their own (sometimes called "wizards"). So, why does Java needs code generators that badly? Because it l...
Ralph Mack wrote: Ultimately, end users of application software care about one thing: - From where I am, I tell it to do what I want and it _just works_. This goes for acquisition, installation, invoking a program, accessing a web site, running a program, or making it go away. Post it up on your wall. Whatever you have been told, after all the supervisors, managers, marketers, salesmen, pundits, and other superfluous personnel are out of breath, and there''s just you and your user left standing, this is all that really matters. So what makes it "just work"? How does Java fare? * The existence of machines that ship without a JVM and the requisite base libraries give it a poor score for install. * The slow load time on application startup definitely hurts. * The programming model prevents most memory leaks, a major cause of the kind of C/C++ program failures that cause users to follow th...
Matt wrote: To debunk the question of whether Java is un-cool, you need a handle on what cool is. The popular view is that cool is one of those Zen-like notions that ceases to be cool once you define it. Taking a decidedly un-cool approach, I typed in "what is cool?" in Google. It came back with a dozen or so definitions it found on the web. I think this one nails it: "A term which is used entirely too often on the Internet." Is Java un-cool? With millions of developers, it''s easy to make the case that it''s popular. With the collective experiences from the Java community, it''s not difficult to argue that it is a great language for improving productivity and maintainability. Java **was** cool when it came out in 1995. Does that make it cool now? I think not.
Mike Monagle wrote: If Java was cool, this web site would be run on Java and not Cold Fusion.
tim d wrote: I read Graham''s stuff...seems kind of silly, wasn''t sure if it was a joke or serious stuff. Who cares about what HACKERs want/like? What about SOFTWARE ENGINEERS? I work on a huge application that would be impossible in Python but Java makes it possibly--and with less bugs than C++ would give us, by far. I was a C++ developer for YEARS and now after 2 1/2 years of JAVA, I hope I don''t ever have to go back...Java isn''t COOL--it''s BETTER. (Of course, there are some things we still have to do with C/C++...but we''ll live with those.)
jay_sdk wrote: I actually really like Java, cool or uncool. I write shell scripts for common tasks/utilities on Unix, use Perl where it gets a little more complicated or I need something that takes input, modifies it and puts it somewhere else. Started Java in ''97 when it was mostly used for silly applets. But most of my job consists of web-applications. With the WORA I can write it on a workstation/desktop whether on Win2K laptop, or Linux workstation, or whatever, and still deploy without problems to any target application server on pretty much any platform. I can see benefits in EJBs if you''re going to deploy against load-balanced massive systems of say 100+ servers, but just using servlets, JSPs and JavaBeans I can drop it all in a single WAR and deploy as many times by ftp-ing it to the server. In TomCat that''s enough, for those commercial ones I may have to register it once in an admin...
David Bueche wrote: People need to spend less time worrying about looking "cool" and more time getting the job done--regardless of which language they use. Regardless of how "cool" you look today and which language you use today, you WILL be using something different in a handful of years, whether a different language or a shovel.
craig wrote: coolness != good language coolness is about doing things like: - low level memory manipulation; because only a cool programmer would ever even know why you would want to do this. - Write really tight, very fast algorithms. I agree that java is faster to write code in, but coolness is related to having complete control over your computer or being the latest trend. Assembler / C / C++ are still cool because the allow this. .NET is cool because it is the new kid on the block. Business efficiency is a totally different question than coolness. Java was cool in the 90s because it made the web come alive, worked well with internet technologies, etc. Other languages appear to be catching up, and java has reached the masses. There is nothing unique about java that continues to make it cool; productive and useful yes, but productive no.
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